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Kal's basement Home Theatre/Bar/Brewery build 2.0
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15782
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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dturco wrote:
The floating seams Mac is talking about are the corners like where the "SORRY" hole is in your picture, there is no support behind that hole. To avoid that the framers would have to put 2x4 or 2x6 at every wall intersection, most don't anymore. I still do Wink

Ah! Yes, I find you definitely need something at each long seam like that for the drywall edges to join up correctly. You don't want a corner bead to do that work for you (IMHO).

If you look back on my sprayfoam pictures you'll see lots of places where one wall meets up with another with no framing at the intersection to hold both sheets of drywall correctly.

The carpenters did actually spend a good few hours going through the framing right before drywall to add a bunch of these 2x4's (or in some cases leftover strips of plywood or similar) to places where there would otherwise be no support between two sheets of drywall.

After they were done I also spent a good hour going through it after myself to make sure that there weren't any misses... Wink I didn't find any.

This extra backing didn't always span from floor to ceiling however as is the case of this "SORRY" hole. There's a spot for one of two pieces of drywall 'floats' for a few inches (which is fine). It just happens to be where someone broke the corner. The arrows in the pictures below show where the "SORRY" hole eventually ends up:





Kal

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WanMan wrote:
I'm trying to figure out that shower pan thing. Is it a poured concrete slab, or something else? I really like it and would find it interesting in even larger sizes.

You pour the concrete yourself. Schluter supplies the closed cell foam insert that goes under the tile (one big flat piece that you cut to shape) which they call the shower tray. they supply the drain (channel body and support) and drain insert that you end up seeing.

Watch the installation video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Kh1NU0RcYnM#

In our case the shower tray wasn't tapered. The concrete is. The floor was broken and re-poured.

Kal

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There hasn't been much to show over the last two weeks as we had the mudders/sanders come and go about 3 times now. There are delays between mudding/sanding to let the mud dry.

The painter also came and sprayed an initial coat of tinted primer everywhere.

The drywall guys hung drywall and did a quick single layer of tape in the back storage room (I didn't see the point in paying them to completely finish the drywall there). So one of the evenings I took the leftover mud from that day and did a second coat and sanded to give it a slightly better finished look. The painter had a few gallons of primer left too I figured I might as well roll the back room too:





While it's only a back storage room I paid for all the mud and tinted primer so I might as well use it up. Wink
(The primer isn't returnable and the mud was already mixed. Had I not used the mud it it would have been thrown out the next day when it was a hard as a rock).


Most of the basement will be 3 different Sherwin Williams colours:

SW7031 for bar/brewery (lightest colour):



SW7032 for HT/hallway/DVD room and most of the ceilings (medium colour):



SW7033 for the coffers (uppers) in the home theater ceiling (darkest colour):



The upstairs of our house is SW7030 which is a lighter colour in the same family so the stairs to basement transition should work well:



Here are the 4 colours together:



There's a bit of the bathroom wall and ceiling that needs painting too and it'll a slightly browner tone (Sherwin Willams 6080):



It may look the same as some of the lighter colours further above but colours on computer monitors are deceptive and rarely look correct.


The electrician came back and installed pot lights, light switches, and outlets:





We're going with black decora style switches/outlets with stainless steel cover plates. Because many of the light switches will be Lutron Decora dimmers, for the time being they install cheap $1-2 temporary white switches to avoid the more expensive dimmers from being damaged.

They only install the recessed part of the pot lights. The visible part is stored away because they will be sprayed to match the colour of the ceiling before installation:



We don't have white ceilings so we don't want white pot lights. All our trim (window/door casings and baseboards) will also be painted to match the walls to give it a more modern look.


A hole was cut in the fireplace bump-out drywall for the firebox to be inserted eventually:



This is a Bio Flame ventless biofuel fireplace. The little burner you see in front sits in the firebox insert and is filled with biofuel and lit. There's no vent needed because the fuel burns nearly 100% clean. Like burning pure alcohol. There's a lid you can open/close to put out the fire. It's all stainless.

The cavity around the fireplace needs to be lined with something like Roxul mineral wool insulation to limit heat transfer to the surrounding framing. That has yet to be done.


A slight SNAFU in the bathroom got corrected: We're doing Realstone along one of the walls so the drywall was ripped off and plywood put in it's place:




We were originally going to tile directly on the floor of the brewery but decided it's probably best to put in a subfloor like the rest of the basement. So platon and plywood was installed:



The issue with tiling right on concrete is that any cracks that form over time will transfer through to the tile/mortar and cause the tile and/or grout to crack as well. The subfloor gives you some play since the two are disconnected. While I did seal up all of the cracks that had naturally formed in the foundation floor before work started, more cracks may form over time. Better to be safe than sorry.


The tile, Realstone, doors, trim, and casing were delivered:



The bathroom and sauna floor 12x24" tile is a Gallarata Castanho (darker brown tile on left) while the vanity/urinal/toilet wall tile is lighter Gallarata Cinza (lighter tile on right):



There's a floor to ceiling shower niche that will get a small accent tile (Metrik Opus stick blend 1 0.6x4 (12x12)):



Grout for all of the bathroom tile will be "Progrout Bone #7 floor".

Realstone for the wall between the sauna and bathroom:




The colour is "Mocha Shadowstone" (part of their new collection series).

The bar/brewery 12x24" tile is a rich grey tile that has some interesting striations (hard to see in the pictures):



The tile is ITC Metalli Black (ZT-66150-B-6). I believe this tile is discontinued - we got a price break because we bought that last of it. Grout for this grey tile will be a dark "Progrout Anthracite #4 Floor".

Before tiling the bar/brewery, the plywood needs to be better fastened to the concrete so what seems like an insane amount of Tapcon concrete screws are used:



There's one every 8-12" or so. Some 8x4 boards have 60+ screws! Installing these is back breaking work. (I'm glad I'm not doing it!). You need to first drill a pilot hole with a good hammer drill and then switch to an impact driver to drive the screw home. They tell me they go through 2-3 hammer drills/year just from Tapcon'ing the subfloors.


Tiling the bar/brewery floor:





There's a bit of a catch-22 at play here that results in extra work: You have to start laying tile from inside the brewery and work out towards the bar otherwise you get trapped since you can't walk on the tiles for a good 12+ hours. At the same time you want to make sure that the most visible area has nice full sized tiles. In our case that's in front of the bar where the tile meets carpet. You don't want a small sliver of tile.

So they temporarily lay the "last" tile and then lay out a path of tiles (accounting for grout spacing) all the way back to the brewery corner where the "first" tile will be laid. This lets them know how to cut that "first" tile starting to make sure they ended up with full tile for the "last" tile.

All these things you just don't think about (or things I never realized myself - tile work's one handyman job I've never done).


When is a floor not flat? When it's in a basement.

Basement cement foundations are rarely ever level/true. Carpet with thick underpad bends and can hide a lot but with tile you really need a nice flat surface to avoid having edges sticking up or down. This is especially true for the larger 1x2' tiles we're using. So in some areas a self-levelling compound is used to even things out a bit:



You just pour it on, spread it, let it dry. It's ok to walk on in only 3 hours, ok to lay tiles in 6 hours. (Ours was left overnight to dry).


Things will be slow over the next 2 weeks as the design/build company doing most of the work shuts down for summer
holidays. We may get a first coat of paint done and the back wall of the brewery may get tiled as well but that's about it.

On the 30th our house power will be shut off from the transformer as we upgrade to a 200A service. A new main 200A breaker panel gets installed in the garage which drives all of the bar/brewery outlets and sauna. Our existing 100A panel becomes a sub-panel to this new one.

Kal

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WanMan



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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Three colors for the entire basement? Now that is a major achievement. My basement had been left up to the wife and the decorators and they resulted in 40 gallons of paint and tinted primer in 8 colors. I guess you can say the basement became the area for experiment and exploration.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WanMan wrote:
Three colors for the entire basement? Now that is a major achievement. My basement had been left up to the wife and the decorators and they resulted in 40 gallons of paint and tinted primer in 8 colors. I guess you can say the basement became the area for experiment and exploration.


4 paint colours actually but that's still a lot less than 8!

How much other "stuff" was there however? how busy is it? We have a lot of tile and other things vying for attention so we didn't want to go too nuts with lots of colours. All the tile/stone/woodwork will be busy enough.

Also depends on the style you go with too. We're doing it somewhat more modern so the idea is to go less ornate, straight lines, flat trim, etc. For example, the baseboards and door frames will be the same colour as the walls which in a normal room in a house would seem weird. Normally in a house they'd be white but we don't want this basement to look like a regular room in a house.

Kal

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zaphod



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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh, i don't think you'll ever have to worry about that basement looking like a regular anything ...

Very Happy

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PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The basement is 1150 square feet. Each room has acid stain floors of different kinds. As suck, the wall paint is tuned to the floor, and the trim/ceiling complimentary to the walls. Every surface in the basement is covered with a paint or stain. Now I am getting ready to re-do the wife's study (hiring the labor), but that has four products from SW--btw, SW has a 40% off paints and stains this weekend in USA, and 30% off supplies.

The walls and ceiling one color, the accent wall has a base paint, glaze, and then top coat, and then there is the trim (including doors and windows). I guess the idea is to get away from the spec/tract builder look. And when I joked with the wife the re-do in the study would be her B-Day present (Sept), she replied she much rather have the living/dining rooms tiled.

See, she'll cheap-date me on food and then expect $3K for a B-Day present. I just told her to start putting out in more creative ways.

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WanMan wrote:
The basement is 1150 square feet. Each room has acid stain floors of different kinds.

Cool. Sounds interesting. Got any pictures? I was trying to figure out a way to get some acid stain floors somewhere into my basement. The brewery would probably have been the only place but at the end of the day I chickened out thinking that the house is still so new that some (normal) cracks still may form.

Probably a wise choice since yesterday one house over they were packing gravel for a walking path that goes to the park behind our house and our entire foundation was shaking. The laser printer on my desk was litterally bouncing up and down at one point. I'll be happy when the neighbourhood's done!

Kal

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never done any tile installation myself so it was interesting to see what they used to get the job done.

Most times when you have a skilled installer, a really flat subfloor, and regular sized tiles (12x12"), an installer will simply use regular spacers between the tiles that look like this:



Using spacers ensures you get nice evenly sized grout lines between tiles. You avoid having problems like this:



I think that traditionally you're supposed to install them like this:



But most seem to just use them the way our guys did making removal easier where 4 are used sticking out:



The traditional way they will often get stuck in the adhesive/thinset making removal a lot harder. It takes 4 times as many doing it our way (they're cheap so irrelevant) and you have to be more careful to line up the corners of course, but a skilled installer who isn't in a hurry will take his time and ensure the tiles line up.

However, because our tiles are big and our floor isn't always perfectly flat, our guys got about this far before deciding it was a real pain to get the tiles perfectly level:



You want your tiles to be perfectly level to avoid lippage like this:





So to make life easier, they finished off using a different product called Lash tile leveling system that seems pretty ingenious to me:





You install the white piece first below the tiles and then knock in the yellow piece which pulls the two tiles together at the same vertical height. The only gotcha with this setup is that you have to make sure to not create any air pockets below the tile. You need to be careful with how much adhesive/thinset you apply first (what size trowel you use).

Once the tile is set you simply remove the yellow locking device and snap off the top part leaving a plastic bit below the tile.

There are a lot of variants of this system too, some easier/harder to use. Some have tools for tightening making installation easier on the fingers.

Tuscan leveling system:



Raimondi tile leveling system:



Rubi Tile Leveling System:



The Lash leveling system our guys used is probably one of the harder ones to use but is more readily available in our area (sold at Home Depot).

I learnt something!

Kal

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garyfritz



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PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see how you could lift the low tile to even them out, without creating air pockets below??
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tile in the brewery was finished today. All that's missing is grout:





The door was hung as well because they needed to figure out how far the door trim would jut into the room so that they would know how close they need to get with the 5" tile baseboard. Doors are usually bought pre-hung and then shimmed to fit, which means you never really know exactly how much gap you're going to have to shim, and therefore you never know how far in the trim/casing is going to jut into the room. You have to hang it to see...


Most of the bathroom floor tile was done (minus the shower and the sauna):



Cutting tile to fit around things looks like it would be really annoying to do. Not every piece always works out which is why you need to buy extras. For example, here's the first attempt at cutting a tile to fit the toilet flange:



Crap. Nothing worse than cutting the tile size to fit, then notching the circle all around carefully, only to have an edge pop off as you try and knock out the center. The fact that the circle is near two edges certainly doesn't help either. While I didn't do the work myself, I'm paying them by the hour (not fixed price) so I have the right to curse. Wink

Here's the final piece that didn't break:



Just like in the brewery, careful attention was spent on figuring out where the first tile would go to make sure that we didn't end up with an odd small sliver of tiles up the side of a wall or somewhere else that was very apparent. Having the toilet flange cutout near two edges of one tile was an unfortunate consequence that just meant that one piece was harder to cut. Unfortunate as nobody will probably care or notice ... it's under the toilet.

These bigger 1x2' tiles also means that there's more wastage as compared to a standard 1x1' tile. Why? When you cut a bit off any tile (regardless of size) odds are you won't use the leftover piece. It most likely gets thrown out. The larger the tile, the more you've just thrown away. So when you do you tile take-off sheets to calculate how much square footage you need, you need to account for more wastage with larger tiles.

Our bar/brewery tile is actually discountinued/end of stock so we bought some extra, just in case. We have about 10 tiles extra (just over one box). I guess that means I'm ok to drop a pint and smash a tile by accident no more than 10 times...

A close-up of the Lash tile leveling system used (mentioned earlier):




Before the tile was installed they laid out the Schluter Kerdi linear drain and waterproof membrane for the shower floor as it extends out a bit past the shower into the room:



In our case it's a giant piece of foam that goes on the bottom, a two part drain assembly, a triangle sliver of stainless steel that goes on the side of the shower facing into the room (so that you don't have to try and install slivers of 1/2" tile because of the slight slant), and then an expansion joint where the slightly angled shower tile meets the flat floor tile :



Lots of boxes for what doesn't amount to much once installed. Schluter (of Germany) is known for completely over-engineering their products.

The Schluter Kerdi orange waterproofing membrane will go up the wall a foot or so if not higher. While some installers completely line the shower walls with the stuff right up to near the ceiling, my installer's telling me it's complete overkill for the tile/grout/cement board we're using as water hitting the vertical tile surface will just drop. They have done both however: Up the wall a foot or so, or almost all the way to the ceiling. I'll talk to them about going up to about shower head height as that seems to make the most sense. They're not trying to save a buck as I pay for everything (it's not a fixed cost project).

Kal

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paw



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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:


The Schluter Kerdi orange waterproofing membrane will go up the wall a foot or so if not higher. While some installers completely line the shower walls with the stuff right up to near the ceiling, my installer's telling me it's complete overkill for the tile/grout/cement board we're using as water hitting the vertical tile surface will just drop. They have done both however: Up the wall a foot or so, or almost all the way to the ceiling. I'll talk to them about going up to about shower head height as that seems to make the most sense. They're not trying to save a buck as I pay for everything (it's not a fixed cost project).

Kal


Interesting. I thought you should take it all the way up. That's what Mike Holmes "Make it right" would do.

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the feedback.

I've had comments from others that it's best to use the Schulter Kerdi on all vertical surfaces too so I'll talk to them again tomorrow about it. Seems like a minimal added expense given how far we've come. They did mention that it does cause some problems with overlaps in corners (you end up with 4-5 laps sometimes).

My gut feel is why not do it and avoid any possible future issues.


Kal

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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

there is a roll on blue membrane for the walls that our developer insisted on before the tile in the showers or tubs. two coats and the badker board is sealed. tiles went on over that with standard glue. (i happened to be working for the tile company that our developer was using - complete coincidence, but i got to tile my house when it was built Smile
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaphod wrote:
there is a roll on blue membrane for the walls that our developer insisted on before the tile in the showers or tubs. two coats and the badker board is sealed.
Here two layer is required in building code for walls and floor. Corners and floor drain area are reinforced with glass fiber strips rolled inside that goo.

Condos usually request inspector to check coating work and measure thickness before tiling.

I'd do treatment as good as possible when wooden frames are used for shower room. Tile seams is not water proof so least shover corner walls all the way up. Concrete or brick structures are bit forgiven, since there is no organic base for mold.
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys!

Kal

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After a week or so off, work has resumed.

The bathroom shower waterproofing has been done and tiling has started (floor first):







There's a very slight incline in the shower area towards the drain:




The Sloan urinal flushometer (1 gallon per flush) and cover plate:



The hole where the flushometer will be installed that will then be covered over by the cover plate:




Paint has arrived:




Door installation and trim has started. Bathroom and mechanical room doors:



The bathroom door has 5 glass (opaque) panels. Once installed you take a box cutter or other sharp knife and score the primer paint and peel it off.

The brewery door is bare wood for now but will be painted:



We weren't sure if we were going to go with a stained door or painted so the better of the two was ordered just in case.


A new 200A electrical panel was installed in the garage. The meter sits just on the other side of the wall:



This is now our "main" panel with a large 200A breaker on the bottom. The original 100A feed can be seen going out the top which leads to the existing 100A panel that services the entire house minus a few new basement items.

In addition to serving the 100A sub-panel, the new 200A panel also serves the brewery, sauna, and bar areas:



Three separate circuits were pulled for the 3 freezers that will go in the brewery. One converted freezer for the 8 kegs on tap, one smaller 4-6 keg freezer for lagering/aging, and third tiny freezer for hops/yeast and for the glycol loop to chill the 8 serving lines.

Keeping these freezers on separate circuits is recommended. If you put too many compressor based devices on a single 15A breaker you risk popping the breaker if ever the power goes out for a while and then comes back.

Compressor based devices (fridges, freezers, dehumidifyers, air conditioners) have a huge initial inrush of current when the compressor first kicks in. This is why your fridge/freezer manual always recommends plugging the device on its own dedicated circuit. The last thing you want is to have 2-3 freezers on one circuit and have the power go off for a few minutes while you're out of town, then kick back on and pop the breaker. You'll come home to freezer/fridges full of spoilt food (or in our case warm beer which is considerably more serious).

Kal

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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
After a week or so off, work has resumed.


Keeping these freezers on separate circuits is recommended. If you put too many compressor based devices on a single 15A breaker you risk popping the breaker if ever the power goes out for a while and then comes back.

Compressor based devices (fridges, freezers, dehumidifyers, air conditioners) have a huge initial inrush of current when the compressor first kicks in. This is why your fridge/freezer manual always recommends plugging the device on its own dedicated circuit. The last thing you want is to have 2-3 freezers on one circuit and have the power go off for a few minutes while you're out of town, then kick back on and pop the breaker. You'll come home to freezer/fridges full of spoilt food (or in our case warm beer which is considerably more serious).

Kal


(Apocalypse Now - Brando ) The horror, the horror Shocked

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PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's one thing I don't get with one of the Schluter products we used in the shower: It's the Schluter-DILEX-BWS "surface movement joint".

Link to product: http://www.schluter.com/4_7_dilex_bws.aspx

It looks like this:



Quote:
Schluter®-DILEX-BWS

Application and Function

Surface joints must be placed within the tiled surface regardless of substrate conditions. They provide stress relief from movements in the tile field due to thermal and moisture expansion/contraction and loading.

Schluter-DILEX-BWS is a prefabricated, maintenance-free surface movement joint profile. It features trapezoid-perforated anchoring legs, made of recycled rigid PVC, which are secured in the mortar bond coat and provide edge protection for adjacent tiles. The profile separates individual fields in the tile covering and accommodates movement via the soft chlorinated polyethylene (CPE) movement zone, which also forms the visible surface.

The movement zone is only 3/16" (5 mm) wide, matching common grout joint widths. The profile absorbs relatively limited movements, given the width of the movement zone. This should be taken into account when evaluating the requirements for a specific application.

If larger movements within the covering are anticipated, the Schluter-DILEX-BWS may be installed with greater frequency to create smaller fields, or the Schluter-DILEX-BWB (3/8" (10 mm) movement zone) may be used.

Schluter-DILEX-BWS is suitable for both residential and medium-duty commercial applications, such as offices and stores, subject to light mechanical loads (e.g., offices and stores). The profile is also suited for exterior use.


It's installed between tiles right where the floor tile starts to slope in the shower. It's the light brown stripe between the tiles in the right of this picture:



I understand what movement joints are for. To quote Schluter: "They provide stress relief from movements in the tile field due to thermal and moisture expansion/contraction and loading." You see them in bridges, sidewalks, and other places where expansion/contraction can occur due to environmental changes.

So why's it needed here? The slope is so minimal that you don't need it for the change of angle. Maybe it's because the material the tile is attached to isn't continuous? On the slightly sloped shower floor on the left the tile is attached to the Schulter foam shower tray resting on concrete, and on the flat floor to the right the tile is attached to a plywood backer/platon that is screwed to the foundation. Over time there may be subtle shifting between the two which may cause cracking in the grout, so an expansion joint is used instead.

But then why only on the one side? Shouldn't it be on all 4 sides? Schluter makes movement joints for just about any application (corner, wall/floor transitions, etc). I would have expected to see it (or a similar product) all around if it was used in one spot. You can't have shifting on one side but not the other. Tiles don't stretch. If they did, you wouldn't need an expansion joint. Wink

Kal

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PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal, the theory behind the expansion joint is: at any angle change the point of the angle becomes a fulcrum point, however small, this adds to the pressures felt at that point,[such as you walking on them] which increases the likely-hood for movement.
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