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Kal's basement Home Theatre/Bar/Brewery build 2.0
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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10615
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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That "Dragon's Breath" looks stunning! I'd love to see that in person. Kal, please post detailed pix when you get it!
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15795
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyfritz wrote:
That "Dragon's Breath" looks stunning! I'd love to see that in person. Kal, please post detailed pix when you get it!

We've received it now and I only unpacked it long enough to make sure it wasn't damaged in any way. It's pretty cool looking. Very primary red just like in the pictures. The swirls appear to move slightly as light and viewing angle changes. It appears almost iridescent at times as it's done on aluminum sheets. I think it'll look pretty cool when the fireplace is on as it's on the the wall opposite the fireplace. Almost like having fireplaces on either wall.

It's (IMHO) reasonably inexpensive given how much wall space it covers ($375 USD to cover a wall space 68" wide). While I can appreciate "real" fine art, my appreciation goes up when it's already reasonably priced. Smile

I'll take more pictures once it's up but there are more available on the order page here:

"Dragon's Breath" Modern Metal Wall Art Decor Sculpture

Here are some others I've found too:







The seller (Statements2000) has all sorts of similar stuff too. My wife looked though about 50 or so from the same seller before we decided that this one would work best.

See here for their complete catalog:

http://www.amazon.com/mn/search/?_encoding=UTF8&node=1055398&tag=curtpalmecrtp-20&linkCode=ur2&field-brandtextbin=Statements2000%20Fine%20Metal%20Art%20by%20Jon%20Allen&camp=1789&creative=390957


Kal

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My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15795
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're putting a sliding barn-door style sliding door at the bottom of the stairs using this hanging hardware:



Link: [Cordia] European Modern Stainless Wood Sliding Barn Door Hardware Set

To make sure the sliding bar hardware would be well supported, I reinforced a bunch of the framing with 2x4's:



You don't want to hang a door only from drywall. While there are 5 connection points where the rod will be supported, having a good backing all the way across means you don't have to worry about hitting a stud. It also lets the screw spacing be even.

Yesterday they hung the drywall:















The bathroom (photo above) is the only room drywalled with moisture resistant drywall (the green stuff) and cement board for the shower. Everywhere else was standard 1/2" drywall.

I noticed that in at least a couple of spots I could see (the wall behind the home theater screen and rack) they actually used a bead of PL adhesive first between the drywall and the studs and then screwed. I'm not sure why. Anyone seen this done? I'm sure it gives good adhesion but I'm not sure why just screwing wouldn't be adequate. Maybe it's because the (snallish) room behind the screen will be completely enclosed and they're worried that the walls may move slightly with pumping as the door is opened/closed? No idea. What's odd is that they didn't glue the wall that faces into the furnace room. I'll have to ask when they come back to mud.

Sometimes one trade will make a mistake and leave an apologetic note for the next guy... in this case the drywall hanger broke off a corner and will leave it for the mudder to fix. In this case the mudder is actually his boss and the owner of the company, so it's nice to be polite: Wink



Next step: Mudding.

Kal

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My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0


Last edited by kal on Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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WanMan



Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10261



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal, how will you clean up the drywall dust from the floor? I know when I had my basement done I got lucky in that I had the entire basement done in acid-stain[ing of the concrete], which the prep included cleaning that up. I think they sanded the concrete and then put down 1/4" of water and vacuumed it up.

I tried to vacuum it up dry and that was a fruitless effort. Live and learn.

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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WanMan wrote:
Kal, how will you clean up the drywall dust from the floor? I know when I had my basement done I got lucky in that I had the entire basement done in acid-stain[ing of the concrete], which the prep included cleaning that up. I think they sanded the concrete and then put down 1/4" of water and vacuumed it up.

I tried to vacuum it up dry and that was a fruitless effort. Live and learn.

I don't know... all I know is that I don't have to do it!

I don't think they'll wet it given that there's a sub-floor already installed.

Kal

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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15795
Location: Ottawa, Canada

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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
I noticed that in at least a couple of spots I could see (the wall behind the home theater screen and rack) they actually used a bead of PL adhesive first between the drywall and the studs and then screwed. I'm not sure why. Anyone seen this done? I'm sure it gives good adhesion but I'm not sure why just screwing wouldn't be adequate.

Ok, turns out that the PL makes for good adhesion which then means you can use less screws which means less screw pops on the long run.

Kal

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mc86



Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 760
Location: pittsburgh, pa

TV/Projector: ECP 4500 (Vidikron box), ECP4500+, wanting 07MS/07MTS, evaluating pc soft-blend


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've only done a little taping + mudding, so I fully expect I'm missing something here...

That said, interesting how on some of the horizontal joints they stuck a piece of maybe 4"wide drywall in between the tapered edges - I'm guessing this is ~100" ceilings in places? For example, the RHS of the bathroom photo shows this. I'd have thought maybe they'd have preferred to put the non-tapered joint down by the floor where least likely to be noticeable. Seems like they have one big dual-joint to have to feather out on-top and on-bottom the way they did it.

Matt
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed that too. Drywall sheets are always 4' wide it seems. Whenever the height went past 8' (we have 8'6" ceilings in spots) they would put the extra 6" piece in the middle between the tapered edges as you mentioned.

Here's another shot of the bathroom that shows it clearly on the left side:



I've only done a little bit of drywall hanging/taping/mudding myself (less than 10 sheets) so I'm definitely no expert expert either, but I'm thinking that it's less work to have to tape/mud/sand one slightly wider strip in the middle instead of two narrower ones (one in the middle and then another at the bottom or top). Just a guess! It's all at waist height too so no step or stooping needed either. (?)

Kal

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dturco



Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3779
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland

TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep. It is for all of those reasons,and it make the taping easier and smother also. The middle piece has two tapered factory edges facing the butt ends of the cut piece, making the "mud fill" better because the tapered edges allow for a fill area. That makes for a more uniform seam.

It also make for only two areas to tape, one middle and one top, instead of three, one bottom, one middle, one top. And as you noted, not having to bend down to tape a small area at the bottom is a real time and back saver.

Another reason for the horizontal seam is it hides better, our eyes track the vertical seams more easily then horizontal.

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WTS



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1227
Location: Calgary


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah you beat me to all the answers. I've built 2 houses in the last 10 years and I pretty much asked all those questions too. The one I was really surprised when I saw it in the first house was the use of PL to secure the drywall, it saves mudding the screws and it goes up faster, and that's the bottom line, get in and out as fast as possible and move on to the next house.
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15795
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WTS wrote:
Ah you beat me to all the answers. I've built 2 houses in the last 10 years and I pretty much asked all those questions too. The one I was really surprised when I saw it in the first house was the use of PL to secure the drywall, it saves mudding the screws and it goes up faster, and that's the bottom line, get in and out as fast as possible and move on to the next house.


From what I've read (yep, I have too much time on my hands), it's not actually any faster, or it's negligible. It seems that the major benefit is that it just stops screw pops. Also seems that glueing is not allowed everywhere. There are some places in the US that do not allow it as part of the building code. In Canada it seems to be allowed everywhere.

Check out this thread where a bunch of contractors tear each other a new one argueing whether it's better to screw only vs glue & screw:

http://www.contractortalk.com/f49/hanging-methods-screws-vs-glue-67001/

... and I thought we had heated discussions around *here*! Wink

There's even a whole sub-forum for drywall: http://www.contractortalk.com/f49/

My garage is taped and has a single coat of mud so I can see that they didn't glue at all since all of the wall sheets have 2 screws per stud in the "field" (contractor talk for the the inner section - everything but the edges) in addition to screws all around the perimeter. So no glue at all. If anyone's looking to save time it's the trades that work for track builders like the company we bought our house from.

Most of the wall sheets in my basement (glued and screwed) only have 1 screw every 3rd stud or so which seems to be the normal way to glue and screw. The ceiling has the normal 2 screws per joist in the "field".

Kal

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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a little surprised to see floating seems. I have always tried to avoid them.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mean floating "seams" I take it? What are floating seams? I'm not familiar with the term and Googling didn't come up with anything concrete.

Kal

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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha, guess I can't spell today. Your horizontal seams where they pass the wall studs, there is no support behind them. Even taped, if you lean on the wall or it gets pressed against with something, the drywall will flex and crack the joint. That 4" wide piece may even break. Go and press it in between the studs with your hand and see it flex. Maybe they just figure it will be fine. Maybe I'm just to anal about it. I just always try to avoid them.
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

macgyver655 wrote:
Your horizontal seams where they pass the wall studs, there is no support behind them. Even taped, if you lean on the wall or it gets pressed against with something, the drywall will flex and crack the joint. That 4" wide piece may even break. Go and press it in between the studs with your hand and see it flex. Maybe they just figure it will be fine. Maybe I'm just to anal about it. I just always try to avoid them.

Interesting. So you'd try to get a 2x4 running underneath any seam where two pieces of drywall join up?

According to my completely unscientific google images search of the word "drywall", it seems that drywall on walls usually seems to be laid horizontally (long side horizontal, one sheet above the over).

Studs in framing run vertical. So you'd always have a seam between drywall sheets where you don't have any wood to back it.

The only way I see it being possible is to install drywall with the long side vertical so that you always have a stud behind seams.

Never even thought about the direction. Some more googling on installing drywall horizontally ve vertically comes up with:

Quote:
Decide, before you begin, whether you will be hanging drywall horizontally or vertically. Vertically is easier for one person to accomplish, but most professional drywall installers will hang drywall horizontally.


Quote:
It's much easier to tape those seams when installing horizontal. Sheets are 4' in height, that puts the seam at about waist level. Very easy to tape that way. The less amount of bending down, or less having to get on a ladder saves time.

Additionally - sheetrock layed horizontally produces LESS seams, as you can get sheets in 12' + lengths. If you placed the sheets upright, you have seams every 4'.

As a side point: The main reason that sheets are placed upright on commercial projects is that the majority of commercial interior construction have dropped (acoustic) ceilings. By standing the sheets up, you can get all factory 'indented' seams which tape smoother. - Rather than what is called a butt seam or a 'nonfactory' edge to a 'nonfactory' edge. Much more difficult to get smooth.


Quote:
if it is wood framed and you hang it vertical it will show every wave in the wall so i prefer it to be horizontal


Quote:
The following is quoted from a drywall manufacture:

"Gypsum board may be applied perpendicular (long edges of board at
Parallel Application right angles to the framing members) or parallel (long edges parallel to
framing). Fire-rated partitions may require parallel application (see
Chapter 10 for specific information on fire-rated systems).
Perpendicular application generally is preferred because it offers the
following advantages:
1. Reduces the lineal footage of joints to be treated up to 25%.
2. Strongest dimension of board runs across framing members.
3. Bridges irregularities in alignment and spacing of frame members.
4. Better bracing strength—each board ties more frame members
together than does parallel application.
5. Horizontal joints on wall are at a convenient height for finishing.
For wall application, if ceiling height is 2460 mm (81) or less,
perpendicular application of standard 1220 mm (4) wide panels
results in fewer joints, easier handling and less cutting. If ceiling height
is greater than 2460 mm (81) or wall is 1220 mm (4 ft.) wide or less,
parallel application is more practical."


I do like the stronger idea in that last post. Same reason why you always install hardwood or the OSB underlay perpendicular to the floor joists. It makes it stronger.

Posts like yours are why I like to blog about this reno... it gets me thinking about things that normally I wouldn't even think about!

Kal

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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15795
Location: Ottawa, Canada

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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



We're installing a Schluter Kerdi-line linear floor drain in the shower. It's a new product that's been out for less than a year it seems.
Also appears overly complex to install based on this video (glad I'm not doing it!):

Installation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Kh1NU0RcYnM#!
Website: http://kerdi-line.com/
Technical data sheet: http://www.schluter.com/media/KERDI-LINE-ENG.pdf

Three types of grate assembly are available:



- Linear
- Grated
- tiled (you reuse your floor tile)

We prefer the linear look:



Kal

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Last edited by kal on Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508



PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
macgyver655 wrote:
Your horizontal seams where they pass the wall studs, there is no support behind them. Even taped, if you lean on the wall or it gets pressed against with something, the drywall will flex and crack the joint. That 4" wide piece may even break. Go and press it in between the studs with your hand and see it flex. Maybe they just figure it will be fine. Maybe I'm just to anal about it. I just always try to avoid them.

Interesting. So you'd try to get a 2x4 running underneath any seam where two pieces of drywall join up?

According to my completely unscientific google images search of the word "drywall", it seems that drywall on walls usually seems to be laid horizontally (long side horizontal, one sheet above the over).

Studs in framing run vertical. So you'd always have a seam between drywall sheets where you don't have any wood to back it.

The only way I see it being possible is to install drywall with the long side vertical so that you always have a stud behind seams.

Never even thought about the direction. Some more googling on installing drywall horizontally ve vertically comes up with:

Quote:
Decide, before you begin, whether you will be hanging drywall horizontally or vertically. Vertically is easier for one person to accomplish, but most professional drywall installers will hang drywall horizontally.


Quote:
It's much easier to tape those seams when installing horizontal. Sheets are 4' in height, that puts the seam at about waist level. Very easy to tape that way. The less amount of bending down, or less having to get on a ladder saves time.

Additionally - sheetrock layed horizontally produces LESS seams, as you can get sheets in 12' + lengths. If you placed the sheets upright, you have seams every 4'.

As a side point: The main reason that sheets are placed upright on commercial projects is that the majority of commercial interior construction have dropped (acoustic) ceilings. By standing the sheets up, you can get all factory 'indented' seams which tape smoother. - Rather than what is called a butt seam or a 'nonfactory' edge to a 'nonfactory' edge. Much more difficult to get smooth.


Quote:
if it is wood framed and you hang it vertical it will show every wave in the wall so i prefer it to be horizontal


Quote:
The following is quoted from a drywall manufacture:

"Gypsum board may be applied perpendicular (long edges of board at
Parallel Application right angles to the framing members) or parallel (long edges parallel to
framing). Fire-rated partitions may require parallel application (see
Chapter 10 for specific information on fire-rated systems).
Perpendicular application generally is preferred because it offers the
following advantages:
1. Reduces the lineal footage of joints to be treated up to 25%.
2. Strongest dimension of board runs across framing members.
3. Bridges irregularities in alignment and spacing of frame members.
4. Better bracing strength—each board ties more frame members
together than does parallel application.
5. Horizontal joints on wall are at a convenient height for finishing.
For wall application, if ceiling height is 2460 mm (81) or less,
perpendicular application of standard 1220 mm (4) wide panels
results in fewer joints, easier handling and less cutting. If ceiling height
is greater than 2460 mm (81) or wall is 1220 mm (4 ft.) wide or less,
parallel application is more practical."


I do like the stronger idea in that last post. Same reason why you always install hardwood or the OSB underlay perpendicular to the floor joists. It makes it stronger.

Posts like yours are why I like to blog about this reno... it gets me thinking about things that normally I wouldn't even think about!

Kal


Yeah. It's funny how none of them address the fact there is no support behind the seams. But, to each their own. It's not that hard to repair a joint that has cracked or broken, I guess.

I have seen so many "professional" "?" mudding jobs that make me say to myself, "WOW, someone actually got paid for this work"

Of course I'm also the guy that uses H clips in subfloor and roof sheeting..... Laughing Maybe I'm just to old school..... LOL.
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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508



PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't get me wrong though Kal. I'm trying to say it was done wrong. It was just that the quality of work done so far looks top notch. This one just surprised me.
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dturco



Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3779
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland

TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Studs in framing run vertical. So you'd always have a seam between drywall sheets where you don't have any wood to back it.

The only way I see it being possible is to install drywall with the long side vertical so that you always have a stud behind seams.


The floating seams Mac is talking about are the corners like where the "SORRY" hole is in your picture, there is no support behind that hole. To avoid that the framers would have to put 2x4 or 2x6 at every wall intersection, most don't anymore. I still do Wink

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WanMan



Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10261



PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI, they do make drywall in 54" wide sheets. A lot of construction in the past decade around me included 9' tall ceiling and this was handled with 54" wide sheets. Unfortunately, they are not typically or easily found in lengths greater then 8' nor in thicker sheets.

I'm trying to figure out that shower pan thing. Is it a poured concrete slab, or something else? I really like it and would find it interesting in even larger sizes.

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