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Kal's basement Home Theatre/Bar/Brewery build 2.0
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VideoGrabber



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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By the way, Ben, from your comment:

> ...just try watching a 16:9 movie on a 2:35:1 screen...and cut off the top and bottom. Unless it's a tv show, it will likely look fine with a bit cut from top and bottom. <

you're not the only one with a CIH screen who feels this way! Disappointment with 16:9 (or 1.85) films on a CIH screen is more widespread than most realize, and not readily admitted. When it's discussed on the A-forum, folks like to pose the question as "For those with a CIH screen, would you ever go back to CIW?" And, of course, the answer is no. However, that masks the real issue.

Just like Ben, a lot of folks (not all of them!) who moved to CIH to optimize their scope experience, found that it compromised lower AR content. Not terrible, and not unwatchable, but not quite as enjoyable as it used to be. Many have made random comments about how 16:9 just doesn't have much impact, and they don't enjoy watching it so much any more, or have shifted most or all of their viewing to 2.40 content (which, after all, as Ben points out, is 'always' the best Smile). Even Art, who has a superb theater, with a 14' wide(!) scope screen, has admitted to this. And he specifically tailored his HT screen so that the height would be roughly equal to what he had on his older 10' wide screen, just wider for scope.

The solution for some, like Ben, is to zoom (and crop) to get the 16:9 content to fill their scope screens. Unlike Ben, many will simply not admit they do it, but I noticed that Chris (ccool36), who also happens to have a stunning theater with a 14' wide scope screen, made the following comment around Thanksgiving of 2010:

"After living with my scope screen for 2 years, i found that I watched nearly all 16:9 content stretched, because I did not want to have such a smaller 16:9 image." Shocked So you're in good company, Ben! Smile

In his case, I never saw him admit that, until after he had stopped doing it. So who knows how many 'closet croppers' may be out there! Wink However, Chris came up with a different solution. He got rid of his CIH screen, and went to CIA. And is much happier as a result. He no longer crops any AR, and views each in a size that he is happy with, from his viewing position. He commented on his new screen:

"With the 2.0 aspect ratio the overall image area is 14' wide by 7' high. Not only did this almost completely use up all the front wall space but it allows me the choice of either a 14' Wide Scope image or a 12' Wide 16:9 image. and what a huge difference the 16:9 image is!!"

While some are perfectly happy with CIH optimizing for scope content, with all others reduced in size (but the same height), some others are not satisfied with the compromise. Folks like ccool36, and Bjoern Roy, and Rich Harkness, and myself. For them, there was an awareness that one size does not fit all, and that some adaptability was required to achieve the best results in all cases. Specifically, when viewing at the theater, we didn't chose the same seating for all films... preferring to select based on 2.40 vs 1.78. But at home, seating is more fixed, and thus the screen needs to be more flexible, to compensate.

That's why I recommend to those trying to decide what size and shape of screen to use, to employ the "Harkness method". I.e., set up your PJ at the appropriate distance, firing on to a blank wall. With you ensconced in your favorite viewing position. Put some 2.40 content on, and zoom things to the maximum width that looks good to you. Then do the same with 1.85/1.78 content. And again with 1.66/1.33 content, if appropriate to your viewing. This was not easy to do with CRT PJs, but is trivially simple with newer digital PJs, like Kal plans on using (2:1 zoom ratio).

What you may find is that 2.40 content looks best on a wider screen, but 1.78 better on a taller screen. And thus something in the neighborhood of a 2.0 ratio for the screen (2.05, 2.10, etc) will give you the flexibility to obtain that. If you want to include content all the way down to 1.33, you may find that something closer to a 1.78 screen is needed. Or, with your 1.33 content, you may find you're still happy on a 2.0-ish screen. But in NO case, will any AR ever fill the whole screen! That was key. With older physical screens, filling them may have some merit, but with projection, this is no longer necessary.

In each case, these are variants of a CIA-methodology. And when Rich did his exploratory testing, he found that things weren't even uniform across all material of the same AR. Depending on type of content, how it was filmed, and image quality, sometimes he preferred certain 1.78 material blown up taller, and other times, not so much. So, being able to adjust the impact based on his source material turned out to be a big advantage for him. But in every case, having a screen that was both tall enough AND wide enough to be able to handle the full range of whatever he threw at it was the key to viewing nirvana for him.

Oh, and Ben, with no cropping required! Smile A projection screen is just a blank canvas. Make sure it's big enough to accommodate whatever you'd like to view on it, without imposing it's own limitations. Don't worry about 'filling it'. That's really a superfluous consideration.

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VideoGrabber



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's run through some analysis here, using Kal's HT as an example (since it IS his thread, after all Smile).

His current screen is 16:9, at 96"x54". His front-row eyeballs were (and will remain) at 11'. I assume this is a setup he considers optimal from his perspective, otherwise he would have changed it. [Though potentially, if a new digital PJ provided better sharpness than his analog PJ, he might decide it was worthwhile going a bit bigger (either a larger screen, or closer seating, either one subtending a larger angle at the eyeball). Since the seating is relatively fixed, I'll assume it's the screen that would change, but for now we'll just take the current setup as optimal for 16:9 content.]

As it is, though 16:9 may be Goldilock's middle bed ("just right"), it's possible that scope seems a bit on the small side, and lacks the impact he'd like it to have. Perhaps he feels like if he just could slide his seats forward a bit, he could compensate for it. Like he would in a movie theater. Say, move his eyeballs to 9.5', rather than 11', when watching scope films. Not really practical here. [Unless he wants to sit on the edge of his seat. Wink]

One thing he might do is keep things the same for 16:9, but expand for wider scope. So keep the same 54" height he currently has, but wider, in a CIH configuration. Like what Art (and many others) have done. That would put 2.40 content at 129.6 inches (or 2.35 at 126.9). Either way, a huge increase over the current 96" width (+33.6 or 30.9"). And not a very comfortable fit, on his screen wall (I'm not sure if he ever stated the actual width... ah, there it is: "The home theater screen wall is 12 feet wide"). Yeah, 7" free on either side is really pushing it. Plus, the likelihood is that widescreen content would then be TOO big, and overwhelming, from his current seating. A d/w ratio of nearly 1.0, and a 53-degree viewing angle! Since he's used to a 40-deg angle, that simply may not be comfortable. I can see him getting up, and moving to the second row now. Smile (Only to reclaim the front row when a 16:9 film returns.)

What if instead he kept 16:9 content the same, but expanded the width for scope, while keeping the viewing area the same, rather than the height? That would put 2.40 at 46.5" high, and 111.5" wide. That's a respectable gain of 6.5" in height, and 15.5" in width over what 2.40 looks like on his current screen. Definitely more immersive. But 7.5" shorter (and 18" narrower) than what CIH would require. The d/w would be more comfortable at 1.2, with an angle of 45-degrees. And his speaker space, per side, would drop from 24" to 16". Tight, but possibly workable.

I generally plan one extreme at 2.40, but if he preferred to use 2.35, then scope would be 47x110.4". Either way an ~111" wide screen would be easier to achieve than 127-130". And emphasize the impact of both ARs in a more balanced way.

I'm not advocating that Kal do this (or anyone else, for that matter). Simply that it might be a good starting point for exploration and evaluation, and may wind up close to what he felt was optimal for him, dealing with content in more than one AR (without compromising one for the other, as most wind up doing, due to physical constraints). Going 15" wider on his screen, but keeping the current height, he'd then use the full height (but not width) for 16:9 content, and the full width (but not height) for 2.40 content. And not change his seating at all. He may even be able to find 7" or so on each side, without having to move his speakers behind an AT screen, which would expand his options. (Once the screen expands to some certain width, like the CIH example above, an AT screen becomes a requirement, not a possibly desirable option.)

If instead he decided that CIH was the holy grail after all, but 129" was just too big, he could rescale things. Say drop down to a 10' wide screen, at 50" high. In that case, scope would be 120" wide (possibly still too big), and 16:9 would drop to <89" wide (from 96), and thus be perceived as too small. (Hey, it shrank in the wash!) Now neither Poppa bear nor Momma bear are happy. Sad And thus the dilemma that Kal, and many others, find themselves in when contemplating switching to CIH. [Trading one set of compromises for another.]

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim hit the nail on the head. If I was to go wider, it would most likely be as he mentions above. I'll never crop. Sorry. Not for me.

Kal

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not much change to show by the end of the week as most of the work was fixing up existing framing and working on bulkheads/soffits (which I can't show - sorry!). A dropped L-shaped overhang was built over the bar too.

The riser has been fixed by slapping on a few spare 2x12's to the front:



Not how you'd build it in the first place but it was the quickest way and the lumber was already on site.

Some of the smaller details are starting to get built now like niches:



The one above is next to the sauna and will be for towels and other things. A bench of some sort will go below.

Today I thought I'd test my new tap tower to make sure that there aren't any leaks given that it's completely welded together and not really serviceable.

So I attached the tower temporarily to a piece of OSB that happens to already have a perfect cutout, then attached all of the faucets, filled a keg with water, set the pressure to various pressures from 5 to 20 PSI, and then pushed water through each of the faucets one by one:







Worked great. No leaks at all.

Kal

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PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to mention:

I also picked up my modified brewery vent hood on Friday. I needed to have the exhaust moved from the front to the top. Not as easy as it seems if you don't want the changes to be visible.

I had dropped off my vent hood with Superior Kitchen Equipment a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately when I went to pick it up last week the work was done incorrectly so it got left there and they promised to fix it up.

Turns out that they couldn't do exactly what they had promised originally by modying the existing hood (and the mistakes only made it worse) so they built a brand new hood for me from scratch, no extra charge.

Thumbs up for customer service. If you're in the Ottawa Canada area go see Superior Kitchen Equipment for anything stainless (sinks/tables/hoods/custom work), tell them that Kal from the TheElectricBrewery.com sent you. Ask for Moe. Phone: (613)288-3020 local, 1(800)749-0012 toll free long distance.

The new hood:



A shot of where I've been brewing for the last ~10 months:



I can't wait to have the dedicated basement brewery finished. I find brewing in the garage I spend half my time running around the house looking for things since it's not a dedicated area.

Kal

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Digital projectors are somewhat new to me...

I have a bulkhead (soffit) between my projector and screen. I want to put the projector as high as possible. Trying to figure out the projector mount height right now.

Which is the correct drop distance to install the projector? Option 1, 2, or 3?:







(Image features exaggerated for effect)

I'm assuming with digital projectors it's option 1? (Because it's the entire lens that forms the image). Correct?

The projector in question will be a JVC RS45 or RS55.

Thanks!

Kal

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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely option 1, Kal.

Responding to your PM.

SC
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks SC. That's what I figured, but I thought I'd check. I can't remember what projector or setup it was, but I could have sworn that in some previous setup #3 would have worked since the top of the screen was the bottom of the projector's image (and vice versa). I may be completely confused and thinking of something else however. Wink

Kal

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last night I measured out the drop I needed for my projector mount to get under the centere bulkhead by using a string and using a laser pointer to double check too. I need a 6" drop minimum for my given distance from screen to projector (called 'throw distance').

I want something with Roll, Pitch and Yaw Adjustments as well as quick release to make mounting easier.

So now the mount's been ordered. I ordered 3 parts:

Chief CMA101 "designer" ceiling plate (the part you bolt to the ceiling)



Chief CMS003 3" pipe (1.5" NPT) - though any 1.5" NPT pipe will do if the length is right



Chief RPMA281 elite adjustable mount (which includes the SLB281 plate to fit a RS45 or RS55)


The SLB281 plate is not shown in any of the pictures of the RPMA281 which just makes things more confusing. It looks like this:



Every projector has different mount points (usually done through where the feet are) so you need a 'adapter' of some sort to connect the adjustable mount to the projector. That's where the SLB281 comes in. It's made for the JVC RS45/55 model projector.

Different ones are available depending on the projector you have. If you end up changing projectors you only have to replace the plate, not the whole mount.

All combined the drop's slightly more than 6" which is perfect.

Digital projector mounts are overly confusing to research, especially given that many manufacturer websites seem to have conflicting information throughout their site.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:46 am; edited 2 times in total
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WTS



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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use a Chief mount, nice and sturdy, 100% better than the expensive Peerless I bought to start with and I got it cheaper too.
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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would definitely use the Chief if I had the headroom.

SC
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fireplace was also ordered a couple of days ago. It's an EcoSmart Fire 1200SS Firebox (Wall-Mounted, Bioethanol):



Product Link: http://www.ecosmartfire.com/bioethanol-fireplace-products/fireplace-inserts/available-models/page-1200ss

Video: http://www.youtube.com/embed/K7glw1pkekk?autoplay=1

Specs:

Internal dimensions: 47.2" wide, 13.8" deep, 19.7" high
Finish: Brushed Stainless Steel
Thermal Output: 4.4Kw/h 15000BTU

Bioethanol means we don't have to vent to the exterior which simplifies installation (no gas line hookup, no need to vent to the outside). The external venting requirements of gas fireplaces was the main reason we went with biofuel: Installing an external vent outside only a few feet off the ground may get in the way of (or limit) what we can do with a future backyard patio/deck. The house is new so there's nothing in the backyard at the moment.

The clean burning nature of denatured ethanol (renewable bio-fuel) means that the burner does not require a flue to remove toxins. The firebox requires zero clearance from combustables so the fireplace doesn't have to eat a lot of space in the room either.

My only criticism on these fireplaces is that (a) you have to fill them and [usually] light them manually (they provide you what's essentially a glorified BBQ lighter), and (b) they're expensive for what's essentially a steel box with a trough.

While this fireplace is mostly decorative it puts out more heat than I thought: Roughly 4.4 Kw/h or 15000 BTU.

Kal

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VideoGrabber



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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal,

> My only criticism on these fireplaces is that (a) you have to fill them... manually <

What's the fuel-consumption rate on these?

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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VideoGrabber wrote:
Kal,

> My only criticism on these fireplaces is that (a) you have to fill them... manually <

What's the fuel-consumption rate on these?

Good question. I believe one fill was good for about 20 hours. Burn rate would be related to size. Larger fireplaces burn more.

Googling came up with:

Quote:
How long will the biofuel burn for?

Typically, a litre of biofuel will burn for 3 hours or more. This depends on if the opening on the steel burner is fully open or not. Also, larger bio fires (with larger steel burner boxes) will burn the biofuel at a faster rate than smaller bioethanol fireplaces. If used outdoors, then any breezes will tend to make the fuel burn faster too.


The one we're getting has 9L / 2.4 gallon capacity.

I don't imagine we'll be filling it often as I doubt it'll be run for more than a few hours at a time here and there.

Kal

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conduit for HDMI

I want to pull a 25 foot / 2" diameter flexible conduit (raceway tubing) to the projector to future proof things a bit.

I am having nothing but problems finding something like this locally:

2-IN FLEXIBLE RACEWAY TUBING (50 FT)


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0008KL8YY/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=curtpalmecrtp-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0008KL8YY

Amazon sells for $59 but it's over $80 to ship to Ottawa Canada. Silly.

I'm thinking about something like this 2" suction hose that I can get locally at Princess Auto:



http://www.princessauto.com/pal/product/5700349/Suction-Hose/2-in.-Suction-Hose

But I wonder if the rubbery-ness would cause a lot more friction than the plastic tubing shown above (even when lubed up).

Anyone have any thoughts?

The HDMI run is 25 feet: 12 feet more or less straight along one side of the Home Theater and then a (hopefully) gentle curve in an approximately 12 foot diameter circle to the center where the projector is.

I need to get something sooner than later as drywall's going to be going up in about 2 weeks.

Kal

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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal, if you can't find the flex conduit at Lowe's or Home Depot (or whatever you have up in the Great White North), then you should definitely be able to find it at any electrical supply/wholesaler. They use it in low-voltage work all the time. Hell, call the electrician that's doing all the line work and lighting - he should be able to get it or tell you exactly where to get it if he doesn't want to deal with it.

Yeah, I'd definitely be worried about the "rubbery-ness" of the vacuum hose over that length - especially with HDMI; you want to be pretty gentle with it.

SC
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks SC. I was actually talking to him today (he's been wiring yesterday and today) and I got the impression that he doesn't use stuff this big. Strange. I'll ask on Monday just to make sure when he comes back...

Kal

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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I'm sure he doesn't use the big stuff... I'd imagine that on the occasion they do use it, it would typically be the smaller 1" or 1.5" stuff. No doubt they're not used to seeing 2" when they do LV work.

Just tried to look at the Carlon/Thomas & Betts "where to buy" page to see if anything came up for you and their server is screwed up. Duh. Rolling Eyes

http://tnb-canada.com/en/

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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got it to work... lots of Carlon/Thomas & Betts distributors around Ottawa:

Quote:
Results of Search for Distributors within 25 miles of OTTAWA, ON

DALTCO ELECTRIC & SY-KANATA 93 HINES RD KANATA ON K2K 2M5
11 mi / 17 km Directions
FRANKLIN EMPIRE-OTTAWA 1140 MORRISON DR UNIT 108 OTTAWA ON K2H 8S9
10 mi / 16 km 613-596-1144 Directions
GRAYBAR ELECT.- OTTAWA 2-1730 BANTREE ROAD OTTAWA ON K1B 3W4
4 mi / 6 km Directions
GUILLEVIN - GATINEAU 130 RUE JEAN-PROULX GATINEAU QC J8Z 1V3
4 mi / 6 km Directions
GUILLEVIN - OTTAWA 175 RICHMOND ROAD OTTAWA ON K1Z 6W3
4 mi / 6 km Directions
LUMEN INC-GATINEAU 250 RUE DEVEAULT GATINEAU QC J8Z 1S6
4 mi / 6 km Directions
MARCEL BARIL LTEE-GATINEAU BRANCHE GATINEAU GATINEAU QC J8V 3P8
11 mi / 17 km Directions
MARCHAND ELECT CO LTD-GATINEAU 140 BOUL GREBER GATINEAU QC J8Y 6H5
3 mi / 5 km Directions
MARCHAND ELECT CO LTD-OTTAWA-ALGOMA 1283 ALGOMA STREET OTTAWA ON K1B 3W7
4 mi / 6 km Directions
NEDCO-GATINEAU 67 RUE JEAN-PROULX GATINEAU QC J8Z 1W2
4 mi / 6 km Directions
NEDCO-KANATA 2710 CARP RD BUILDING A CARP ON K0A 1L0
18 mi / 29 km 613-836-7515 Directions
NEDCO-OTTAWA 700 INDUSTRIAL AVENUE OTTAWA ON K1G 0Y9
2 mi / 3 km Directions
WESCO - OTTAWA # 2330 2320 ST. LAURENT BLVD OTTAWA ON K1G 6C4
2 mi / 3 km 613-733-2500 Directions
WESTBURNE RUDDY-OTTAWA 1173-1175 NEWMARKET ST. OTTAWA ON K1B 3V1
4 mi / 6 km 613-747-9573 Directions
WESTBURNE-NEPEAN 1867 MERIVALE ROAD NEPEAN ON K2G 1E3
6 mi / 10 km Directions


The electrician's stopping off at his distributor Monday morning to pick up the fat 8/3 wire for the sauna. I'll see if I can get a note to him to pick up 30' of the 30 feet of Carlon 2 diameter ENT tubing at the same time. Otherwise I'll start calling around myself.

It's the smallest things that cause the biggest headaches sometimes. Sheesh.

Thanks SC!

Kal

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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ordered 100 sq ft of B-Quiet Ultimate - a viscoelastic deadener with a supercharged butyl based adhesive. It's a less expensive version of Dynamat and originally meant to deaden the sound in cars but is often used to quiet HVAC ducts and pipes as well. Similar to what you see installed under many sinks.

100 sq ft is probably double of what I need but I have other projects I can use it on.

You don't need to completely cover the ducts either. Here's a quote/example from AVS:

Quote:
If you are finishing your basement, here is an important tip.

Dynamat your ductwork!

It makes a HUGE difference. We use our basement all the time now, and when it was unfinished the sound from the furnace kicking on (boom) was very annoying. And you could hear it all over the house.

I put Dynamat Extreme on all my ductwork and also on my furnace and it ELIMINATED the noise.

I can't even tell when my furnace kicks on now, unless I am standing next to a vent and feel it...

Truely amazing. I'm not sure the "official" way to put it on, I just tapped on each duct and put some until it sounded like wood. Then drywalled over it all. I even have one of my sidewall speakers next to my duct work and there is Zero vibration or noise from the duct.

Great stuff.

Here are some pics.





I also used it where the ceiling ducts open into the rooms, as they would often vibrate and rattle. Not anymore.

Dynamat is a Great product, not only for car audio, but also for your home!


Link: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1061375/complete-130-home-theater-for-under-2-000-if-i-can-do-it-so-can-you/30#post_14695085

Kal

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My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0
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