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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: PS3 Lovers--convince me! |
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OK, like Kal, I don't give a rat's ass about extra on discs. I only want to watch blu-ray movies--so I don't care about profile 2.0 in the near future. I can also wait 30 seconds for a disc to load, I'm not so impatient that my head is going to explode if the movie is not playing in 4 seconds of disc insertion.
It seems to me that the PS3 has two "Achilles heels":
1) Stupid ass control that means you have to jerry rig an IR receiver.
2) Lack of analog outputs means you MUST upgrade your receiver to enjoy high resolution audio (and I for one find the difference between TrueHD and good old lossy audio pretty major).
Given that:
1) I have a good AVR with 7.1 analog inputs
2) Already have an HDMI switching solution
3) Will have only two sources that do lossless audio (HD DVD player and BD player).
I really have no compelling reason to upgrade the AVR in the near future. I could just take the HD DVD player off the analog inputs (and just watch the 3 TrueHD discs I own with lossy audio) and put the BD player on it.
So, it seems that buying a used Panny or other BD player for <$300 makes alot more sense than a PS3 and jerry rigging an IR input for >$400 plus having to upgrade the AVR. The bonus also is that I don't have that ugly ass PS3 in the rack. 
So, what am I missing?
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Brian Hampton
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1173
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
I think you have it all figured out. The PS3 isn't ugly in the rack if you ask me. But,.. My AVR has analog inputs too and a Stand Alone player would let me use them. I also have a jerry rigged IR solution so I can keep one remote control (harmony.) Those are the only reasons to want a stand alone player pretty much.
I love my PS3 like you can't imagine but maybe it's not for everyone. The upside of having to upgrade to HDMI-Audio is you get to enjoy HDMI-Audio.
-Brian
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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You seem to be on the ball with what's up with the PS3 Dave.
The only thing I'd add is this:
| Person99 wrote: | | 2) Lack of analog outputs means you MUST upgrade your receiver to enjoy high resolution audio (and I for one find the difference between TrueHD and good old lossy audio pretty major). |
You will get increased audio quality even over Toslink/SPDIF with your current setup as compared to standard DVD. From the Feb 19th newsletter
"Standard DVD only provides 448 Kbit/s for Dolby Digital and typically 750Kbit/s for DTS. Blu-ray offers completely lossless audio at rates greater than 6 Mbit/s. Even if your receiver cannot decode the new lossless formats you will still benefit as the base Dolby digital and DTS rates are increased to 640 and 1500 Kbit/s respectively. This is a 43-50% increase in sound information without even changing your receiver!"
DTS-HD MA is the big boost - all the way up to 1500 Kbit/s since the 1500 Kbit/s "core" is used when you only have an older receiver and use SPDIF/Toslink.
Most people are saying that the jump from the low 448 and 640 Kbit/sec that we have on DVD today up to about 1500 Kbit/sec gives you 95%+ of the audio quality boost. The jump from 1500 up to 6000 Kbit/sec or higher in truly lossless doesn't actually make that much of a difference from what I read.
I blame the original DVD standard for setting the bar so friggin' low. (I remember full-rate DTS tracks at 1500 way back when and remember how great they sounded, and then they come out with the 640 Kbit/sec rate just so that they could sell more discs because that was low enough to also cram Dolby Digital in there as well. The result sucked).
The other issue is upgradability in general (for things we don't even know about yet & bug files) and resale value. The PS3 shines on these fronts. A lot of players offer firmware upgrades but none seem to be as fast and easy as the PS3.
More in the March 24 Newsletter in the Q/A section.
Kal
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | You will get increased audio quality even over Toslink/SPDIF with your current setup as compared to standard DVD. |
But isn't Toslink limited to what it transmits? E.g. over HDMI you get 5.1 but on Toslink you get stereo, or something stupid like that?
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | kal wrote: | | You will get increased audio quality even over Toslink/SPDIF with your current setup as compared to standard DVD. |
But isn't Toslink limited to what it transmits? E.g. over HDMI you get 5.1 but on Toslink you get stereo, or something stupid like that? |
No, not at all. Toslink (ie: optical) and SPDIF can do multichannel audio but are limited in bandwidth so only lossy audio is allowed. 1500 Kbit/sec can be done however which is the highest that the Dolby Digital and DTS previous standards in older receivers can decode.
To do lossless muti-channel audio you need a lot more bandwidth, hence you have to use HDMI.
Kal
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Rdean
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 258
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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I am a reformed HTPC user. But there are still instances where having a PC hooked up to your home theater is either handy or just geeky fun. But the PS3 is almost completely removing my desire or need to connect a PC to my home theater, leaving in it's place a very stable media server with a simple intuitive interface.
1. Sometimes it is nice to have slide shows of your picture library on the screen when company is over. This can be pics that are saved to the PS3 HD or on USB storage device or streamed from another PC on the network.
2. Sometimes it is also nice to be able to show videos that are saved on hard drives (archived home video, downloaded video, etc). This can be videos that are saved to the PS3 HD or on USB storage device or streamed from another PC on the network.
3. Want to play your music library with a trippy visualization on the screen? The songs can be local to the PS3 or on USB storage device or streamed from any PC on your network.
Keep in mind the streaming over the network requires some setup of the networked PCs to make them DLNA servers but nothing major.
Not yet but soon I hope: If for some reason I missed a TV show I can go to abc.com, etc and watch it streamed to my PC(sometimes the quality is not that bad, Lost for example is very impressive for streamed video). Currently this is problematic when trying to use the PS3 browser because of an out of date Flash plugin, but should be remedied soon.
I would recommend previewing a PS3 and see how it feels to interact with one before you make the decision. I was skeptical before I got mine, but now I think it is uber cool. And yes, even the free games are fun.
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Brian Hampton
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1173
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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Rdean,
Absolutely!.... I started with HTPC in 1999 because it was cheaper to get the multi-media kit with the DVD-Rom Drive and hardware decoder then it was to buy a Stereo VCR.
I ran with HTPC for years and loved it but was always working to improve it and refine it. I had the notion the PS3 could be like a perfected HTPC and at any rate it is cheaper then trying to build a HTPC with Blu Ray capabilities by a long shot.
Since the PS3 moved in the HTPC has been history. I still have all the hardware for the most part and sometimes flirt with the idea of building a HD DVR PC but... Netflix pumps me the Blu Rays as fast as I can watch um and the PS3 has that rock solid reliability I always dreamed of from a HTPC.
=Brian
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: |
The only thing I'd add is this:
| Person99 wrote: | | 2) Lack of analog outputs means you MUST upgrade your receiver to enjoy high resolution audio (and I for one find the difference between TrueHD and good old lossy audio pretty major). |
You will get increased audio quality even over Toslink/SPDIF with your current setup as compared to standard DVD. From the Feb 19th newsletter
"Standard DVD only provides 448 Kbit/s for Dolby Digital and typically 750Kbit/s for DTS. Blu-ray offers completely lossless audio at rates greater than 6 Mbit/s. Even if your receiver cannot decode the new lossless formats you will still benefit as the base Dolby digital and DTS rates are increased to 640 and 1500 Kbit/s respectively. This is a 43-50% increase in sound information without even changing your receiver!" |
The HD DVD players do this also by downsampling the better audio and send it out at max DTS bit rate. I've compared this to the lossless inputted to my analog inputs. No comparison, the downsampled and sent via S/PDIF is clearly inferior. This is what leads me to my "you have to upgrade the receiver comment".
| kal wrote: | | Most people are saying that the jump from the low 448 and 640 Kbit/sec that we have on DVD today up to about 1500 Kbit/sec gives you 95%+ of the audio quality boost. The jump from 1500 up to 6000 Kbit/sec or higher in truly lossless doesn't actually make that much of a difference from what I read. |
Either they are smoking crack, have a tin ear, or have crappy amps/speakers. I can flip back and forth on an HD DVD like transformers and hear a clear difference as can everyone that I've shown the "greatness of lossless audio" to like this.
| kal wrote: | The other issue is upgradability in general (for things we don't even know about yet & bug files) and resale value. The PS3 shines on these fronts. A lot of players offer firmware upgrades but none seem to be as fast and easy as the PS3.
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Hmmm. All HD DVD players have been firmware upgradable via disc or internet connection. Are you saying this is not the case with blu-ray players?
Resale doesn't really concern me--I'm buying a used player for $250, who really cares? It will just become relegated to another room when the theater gets an upgrade.
Thanks for the input.
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Dave
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Rdean wrote: |
I would recommend previewing a PS3 and see how it feels to interact with one before you make the decision. I was skeptical before I got mine, but now I think it is uber cool. And yes, even the free games are fun. |
I'm not anti-PS3. I'm just trying to weigh the pros and cons of the PS3 vs. a $250-300 used player. I don't care about streaming music or watching home movies from the PC nearly as much as I care about lossless audio. So, the pros and cons seemed to be:
PS3
Pros:
- Fast, user friendly
- Upgradable
- Does other things you may or may not care about
Cons:
- Lossless audio only available over HDMI--therefore you have to spend many $$$ to upgrade your audio chain.
Used BD Player
Pros:
- Cheaper
- Can do lossless audio
Cons:
- May not be future proof
- Cannot act as media extender
- Slow
I would think if using it in the theater, then audio quality would be way more important to everyone than things like being able to watch home movies.
Are all you guy PS3 guys planning to upgrade your pre/pros or AVRs or have many of you just decided to "opt out" of half the high def experience?
As a last thought, I guess my main concern is compatibility. What I was wondering if I would hear is "many discs won't play on anything but a PS3" or something like "Panasonic will never issue a firmware upgrade so it a disc comes out that has problems--too bad buddy!" These are the things that would be more likely to give me pause.
Thanks all.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Rdean
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 258
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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For now I am happy with the moderate audio quality upgrade and will in the future upgrade my AVR. In the mean time I'm having fun with all the PS3 can do in addition to play Blu-ray discs.
I understand where your coming from though. If you are not going to spend $$$ on a new AVR right now and want to immediately do lossless and don't care about media serving then PS3 is probably not the right choice for you.
Seems like that is the direction you're leaning.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Brian Hampton wrote: | | I still have all the hardware for the most part and sometimes flirt with the idea of building a HD DVR PC but... |
Sony's way ahead of you, see: PlayTV for the PS3: http://playstation.about.com/od/hardwareandaccessories/a/PlayTVPS3.htm
Coming out soon in Europe, no idea when North America will follow.
| Person99 wrote: | | Hmmm. All HD DVD players have been firmware upgradable via disc or internet connection. Are you saying this is not the case with blu-ray players? |
No, they are all upgradeable - just saying that with internet connectivity built in, it's easier on the PS3 than on some players that do not have internet connectivity (most don't as it's only a requirement with Profile 2.0).
| Person99 wrote: | | Are all you guy PS3 guys planning to upgrade your pre/pros or AVRs or have many of you just decided to "opt out" of half the high def experience? |
I plan on upgrading my pre/pro. It's long overdue.
You have a very valid argument Dave. If I was in your shoes I'd be hard pressed to get the PS3 because of the lossless audio issue. I think your logic is sound (pardon the pun). I would likely do the same as you and go with a standalone player.
| Person99 wrote: | | As a last thought, I guess my main concern is compatibility. What I was wondering if I would hear is "many discs won't play on anything but a PS3" or something like "Panasonic will never issue a firmware upgrade so it a disc comes out that has problems--too bad buddy!" These are the things that would be more likely to give me pause. |
I think you'd need to look at which manufacturers are better/worse at issuing firmware updates. I don't think it's a huge issue however.
Are there any Profile 2.0 players coming out in the next few months that provide multichannel analog outputs?
The other question of course is: How good are the DACs on the multi-channel analog outputs of most of these Blu-ray players?
Kal
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69shelby
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
Posts: 102
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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Either get it or don't, why do you need to be convinced? There are plenty of reviews out there.
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah...What are you trying to do...."reio-ta" this to death? Note my new verb.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:09 am Post subject: |
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None of the reviews will have an HT slant to it really, and none of the reviewers are as knowledgeable as us.
Dave's doing the right thing: He's already researched it, knows the shortcomings and strengths, and just wants confirmation that he hasn't missed something.
Personally, I find this refreshing. I wish more people did this sort of research instead of just email us to ask "What should I buy?".
Kal
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Dave,
If there's any chance that you would eventually just use the PS3 as a BR player, then get a dedicated BR player with 5.1 analog out. I just can't get into games, nor do I use mine for anything other than watching movies, so I really wish I'd have gone with a dedicated player.
Also, there's a lot to be said for a regular, normal remote.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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Phil, if you dislike your PS3 that much, you can easily sell it for not much less than what you paid for it.
SC
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scoobydoo
Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 358
Location: Victoria BC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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I'm with Kal.
this is a great topic as this is the same issue I'm struggling with as well.
I have an older Denon 3300 and as my theatreroom is small 12X13 the best i'll get in that room is 5.1 sound. I was totally leaning towards a PS3 but now I'm thinking a stand alone BR player is the way to go for me.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| scoobydoo wrote: | I'm with Kal.
this is a great topic as this is the same issue I'm struggling with as well.
I have an older Denon 3300 and as my theatreroom is small 12X13 the best i'll get in that room is 5.1 sound. I was totally leaning towards a PS3 but now I'm thinking a stand alone BR player is the way to go for me. |
The audio is pretty important to me, so for me, it has boiled down to this: if I were going to upgrade the AVR within 6 months, I'd probably get the PS3 and jerry rig the IR receiver and just use S/PDIF until then.
However, it is looking like it is unlikely I'll upgrade the AVR for at least a year, so I think I'm going to pick up a used dedicated player for $250-300. I can always move it to the living room which is where the AVR always goes when I upgrade the theater. If at the time I get an HDMI AVR the PS3 looks like the best BD player still, then I'll probably grab one at that point.
One other nice side effect is that I'm supporting Sony less by not buying a PS3.
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Dave
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | Dave,
If there's any chance that you would eventually just use the PS3 as a BR player, then get a dedicated BR player with 5.1 analog out. I just can't get into games, nor do I use mine for anything other than watching movies, so I really wish I'd have gone with a dedicated player. |
Phil, I would ONLY use it as a BD player. I don't listen to music in the theater, I have ZERO desire to play games, and I'm not stealing content that I need to serve up from my server.
| Phil Smith wrote: | | Also, there's a lot to be said for a regular, normal remote. |
You can jerry rig an IR port to the PS3. See this:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=761809
and
http://reviews.cnet.com/game-accessories/nyko-blu-wave-infrared/4505-10110_7-32608476.html
This will let you use a universal remote with the PS3.
Yes, it is a stupid hack, but that's life, Sony obviously didn't intend for this thing to be used in home theater set ups.
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Dave
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: |
The other question of course is: How good are the DACs on the multi-channel analog outputs of most of these Blu-ray players?
Kal |
I honestly don't think this is a concern. Audio DACs are pretty well understood and mature technology. Everyone uses 1 of a few different ICs for this. So, I'd gamble that lossless audio decoded from an average DAC is going to sound better than lossy audio decoded by the best DAC in the world.
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Dave
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