| Author |
Message |
station_equation
Joined: 04 Aug 2024
Posts: 32
Location: Peoria, IL
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 9:14 pm Post subject: Waking up a NOS G90 after 25 years on the shelf |
|
|
I recently got back into my laserdisc collection after fixing a player which had been out of commission for a very long while, and forgot how cool the big discs and jackets are. The picture doesn't look great on an LCD tv, so after some research into what projectors made LD look good during its prime, I came across the G90.
Having grown up in the early 80s, my dad took me to a buddy of his's house who had a CRT projector in, like, 1985. And seeing those 3 tubes work their magic has burned into my mind ever since. So, with a heavy dose of nostalgia in hand, I went looking for a projector.
Didn't have to look far, and came across the FH ebay listings. I didn't realize before I made them a "Make an offer" offer that they'd been listed for dozens of years, or else I probably would have more aggressively offered, but either way they accepted. I'd rather not divulge the cost 'cause I kind of feel guilty for spending any significant amount of cash on such an old technology.
I've already been in contact with craigr through his ebay listings, luckily he's just a 3-hour drive away for whatever goes wrong down the road. I did get a note from FH that they successfully swapped the Dallas chip, the machine didn't crash on its first bootup from leaving the factory 20 years ago, and they're nearly ready to ship.
Now I just need to turn my underutilized basement into a home theater. Literally starting from scratch, centering on this beast. Luckily this house from 1962 still has 8 foot ceilings down there.
Last edited by station_equation on Tue Sep 10, 2024 3:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 3:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
First order of business... change the Dallas chip, as the original one is 20 years past its expiry date, and if it fails, it will spot burn all 3 tubes. Search here for 'Dallas Chip' and you'll find lots of posts about it.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 8:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
WOW nice !
The auction of FH says that the G90 does come with a new Dallas chip.
See ebay ad:
https://ebay.us/O2Vguy
Still a great price if you compare it to the brand new JVC generation.
cheers
ElTopo
_________________
Barco Cine 9 the one and only
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
station_equation
Joined: 04 Aug 2024
Posts: 32
Location: Peoria, IL
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 7:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
They did say they replaced the Dallas, and that it didn't crash the tubes on the first boot-up. The freight company says it'll be here on Monday, which is great, but I would happily have accepted something slower than 3-day freight if there would have been a cheaper option.
Now onto the questions...
Zooming and scaling the picture using the G90's remote actually eliminates the projection of the letterbox bars, correct, and doesn't just move them off the screen? I'm going to be projecting a lot of NTSC laserdiscs and don't want to worry about burning in the bars.
Someone in some thread said not to use the memory function to save the aspect ratio scales. That's a little disappointing, since I have a healthy mix of all 3 common aspect ratios and it would be nice to easily switch between. Is that a widespread rule of thumb, or just that person's opinion? What is the risk?
Is the internal line doubler any good, or should I start shopping for an external solution?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 8:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| station_equation wrote: | | Zooming and scaling the picture using the G90's remote actually eliminates the projection of the letterbox bars, correct, and doesn't just move them off the screen? |
There's no zoom on CRT projectors. You want to physically install the projector at the correct throw distance (distance from screen to lens) that maximizes phosphor width usage.
While following the manual for throw distance is always a good bet (and is usually recommended for new users), to maximize tube life even further do the following steps:
1. Put the projector on the cart or simply leave it on the floor so that you can move it.
2. Display something that fills the screen entirely (like a grid test pattern).
3. Using only the green (middle) tube, look into the tube and increase the image width on the tube face until it is around 1/8" to 1/4" from the edge of the white phosphor. Under no circumstances should you allow the image to go off of the white phosphor surface!
4. Move the projector back and forth until the image fits your screen.
5. THAT is the correct throw distance for optimal phosphor usage.
It'll usually be 5-8% closer than what the manual tell you because the manual throw instructions are conservative since they make you install blindly without even looking in the tubes at all.
You then toe (angle) in the other two lenses to fit.
Read:
http://www.curtpalme.com/TubeRasterSetup.shtm
http://www.curtpalme.com/CRTSetupGuide.shtm
http://www.curtpalme.com/Focus_and_Mechanical_Aim1.shtm
| Quote: | | Is the internal line doubler any good, or should I start shopping for an external solution? |
Certainly start out with the internal one but I don't remember anyone ever using the internal scaler or doublers in CRT projectors as they simply were not very good. I can't even remember which ones had scalers or doublers but if you say the G90 did I believe you. 
Doubling (480i to 480p) isn't going to be enough for a G90 however. You'll still see big fat scanlines. You want at least a quadrupler (960p) given how sharp the G90 (relative to other CRT projectors)\. If using a scaler you'd just go right to 1080p. With the G90 that's the setup I'd do: 1080p60. And then run everything at that rez/resolution. You probably won't need any other setups.
So ideally you want something better than the internal 480i to 480p doubler, like a Radiance. You can do any resolution you like. Given the 1080p max of this projector I'm not sure the Radiance Pro (which does 4K) makes sense. The "regular" Radiance 2143 which does 1080p is the last one left (discontinued) but there are a few left. We sell them here direct from Lumagen:
http://www.curtpalme.com/Radiance.shtm
Cheers,
Kal
_________________
Support our site by using our affiliate links. We thank you!
My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
station_equation
Joined: 04 Aug 2024
Posts: 32
Location: Peoria, IL
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 6:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kal wrote: | Doubling (480i to 480p) isn't going to be enough for a G90 however. You'll still see big fat scanlines. You want at least a quadrupler (960p) given how sharp the G90 (relative to other CRT projectors)\. If using a scaler you'd just go right to 1080p. With the G90 that's the setup I'd do: 1080p60. And then run everything at that rez/resolution. You probably won't need any other setups.
Kal |
So I just found this in the installation manual: “DRC (Digital Reality Creation): Set to ON to make the NTSC signal 4-times density image.”
This means the internal circuit IS a quadrupler already? Maybe people just colloquially call it a doubler?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 9:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Not sure. As I mentioned before, back when CRT was popular nobody used the internal scalers on any projector as they were garbage.
Back in the day everyone was using a video processor or HTPC of some sort to scale. There were lots of popular models:
http://www.curtpalme.com/VideoProcessors.shtm
If you search the forum there are likely some previous discussions about the G90 built-in scaler/doubler where people talked about the capabilities and the quality.
You can certainly try the option out and see what you think however. Costs you nothing to try it.
Kal
_________________
Support our site by using our affiliate links. We thank you!
My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HaydnG90
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1356
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 7:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wow, shocked FH still have these. They have been trying to sell the NOS units for over 15 years. Brave purchase and I tip my cap.
I hope your YA board has an IC421 with the 'good' serial number (836A01E). If you're not aware of the issue of the bad batch it would be worthwhile doing some searching. If you have the dodgy one I would insist FH supply a board with the good SN. I'm hoping since these were later production units you'll be OK. I failed IC421, which is proprietary to Sony and can't be repaired, will turn your G90 into a 250lb paperweight.
Being close to Craig is a huge bonus. He is now the defacto expert for the G90 both for installation, calibration and board level repair. I would also strongly recommend you have him install and calibrate the G90 for you. He will wring out the last ounce of performance which cannot be achieved using consumer level gear. What screen (gain and size) will you be using? Total light control?
Good luck with the install.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
station_equation
Joined: 04 Aug 2024
Posts: 32
Location: Peoria, IL
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 1:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Craig thinks it’ll have the dodgy YA. Will evaluate options once it gets in tomorrow and I can put eyes on the board.
Will be running it on the factory preset 120” settings. Depending on which part of the room it’s in, the depth will be either 16’ or 22’, so I was right on the cusp of going to 150”, but since I don’t have the ceiling clearance for when it runs 4:3 (P&S LD and NES), why bother screwing up the factory convergence settings on day 1.
Was planning on a 1.3 screen, but saw it has a setting for 1.8 as well. I can make the basement absolutely dark, which would you recommend?
_________________
Jeremy
Sony G90 / Pioneer HLD-X9 / Radiance 2144 / Marantz SR5011
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 2:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| station_equation wrote: | | Will be running it on the factory preset 120” settings. |
CRT projectors (including the G90) don't have preset settings for specific sizes. Nor do they have to be specific sizes like 120" or 150". I had to pull up the manual to understand why you may be thinking this. See the manual: http://www.curtpalme.com/docs/SonyG90_Install.pdf
I know that the manual states right at the beginning on page 5 "By default this projector is adjusted for 120-inch front projection on the floor/desk" and that on page 12 they list a bunch of screen sizes in inches (90, 100, 120, 150, etc) but you can do any screen size you want. Only downside is that the larger the screen, the dimmer the image.
By stating a default 120" size all they're doing is pre-adjusting the toe-in of the outside lenses and a few other minor things that everyone always adjusts from scratch anyway when installing a CRT projector.
As I mentioned above, these presets will be conservative and never optimal. See above for the correct way to set throw and toe-in for any CRT projector.
| station_equation wrote: | | Depending on which part of the room it’s in, the depth will be either 16’ or 22’ |
Throw distance (what you call depth) is 100% tied to screen width (i.e. size). There is no zoom. If you can only do 16' or 22' throw, exactly, then your optimal screen width will be set exactly to two sizes. You can go smaller and reduce the raster size on the tube faces but it will not be optimal: You'll wear out the tubes faster, have reduced light output, have uneven tube wear, etc.
| station_equation wrote: | | so I was right on the cusp of going to 150” ... |
Again, there isn't just 120" and 150" and nothing in-between. It's an analog / mechanical device. There is no "cusp". You can do 120", 131.1", 149.9", anything you like. If 148" works best you can do that. Be careful of light output however as you go larger. The larger your screen, the higher your contrast setting, the faster the tubes will wear.
| Quote: | | but since I don’t have the ceiling clearance for when it runs 4:3 (P&S LD and NES), why bother screwing up the factory convergence settings on day 1. |
You're going to be doing a full setup and convergence from the start anyway. This is true for any CRT projector. You're not screwing anything up as the settings will not be perfect or ideal - there is no "factory" convergence settings on any CRT projector. You *HAVE* to do a setup/convergence for any CRT projector. You can skip getting into the weeds of things like astigmatism adjustment and whatnot, but the simple basics like mechanical setup (toe-tin, focus) followed by electrical setup (raster size, convergence) must always be done. This is a given.
These are not not plug and play devices by any stretch of the imagination no matter what you read in the manual. Historically these were always professionally installed, but many of us technically inclined enthusiasts learned the ins and outs back when CRT was the only or best option for image fidelity (back when digital really sucked - I got my first CRT projector back in 2000 but spent ~10 years reading about them first). I applaud you for buying a G90 in this day and age but if the intent is to just plug it in and turning it on then I think you'll unfortunately be disappointed. You would have been better served buying a digital projector as the out of the box performance will be much better.
| Quote: | | Was planning on a 1.3 screen, but saw it has a setting for 1.8 as well. I can make the basement absolutely dark, which would you recommend? |
I had to look in the manual again to understand why in the name of god a crt projector would have settings for screen gain as you can run any screen gain you like with CRT projectors.
I see that on page 68 it mentions SCREEN TYPE and lists 2.0 (bead) and 1.3 (mat). After some more searching this is a setting to get the 6500K greyscale/white balance a bit closer to where it should be by default but even that's never that close so a complete greyscale/white balance setup should be done (especially if you find it to be off). CRT projectors are definitely a lot more off than digitals in this regard.
Here's a Sony G90 set to "Factory 6500K settings":
After calibration:
(These were taking from my grayscale for dummies guide: https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=35322.html)
Long story short, don't let this setting sway you and don't think that the projector has "settings" for two different screen gains only and you have to stick to one of those as that's not true.
Choosing close to unity is optimal and minimizes hot spotting / increases viewing angle. Given that CRT projectors are dim many would historically go with around 1.3 again as the starting point. If you go really big and don't mind the downsizes, consider higher gain.
Kal
_________________
Support our site by using our affiliate links. We thank you!
My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0
Last edited by kal on Sun Aug 11, 2024 2:59 pm; edited 5 times in total
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
station_equation
Joined: 04 Aug 2024
Posts: 32
Location: Peoria, IL
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 3:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The only reason I used the term “preset” is because the installation manual describes a screw location that sets the outside lens aims for 120”. It you want anything besides 120, you have to move the screw from that hole to the adjuster slot.
_________________
Jeremy
Sony G90 / Pioneer HLD-X9 / Radiance 2144 / Marantz SR5011
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
station_equation
Joined: 04 Aug 2024
Posts: 32
Location: Peoria, IL
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 3:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
“You would have been better served buying a digital projector as the out of the box performance will be much better.”
Believe you me. I’m an engineer’s engineer. Nothing in my house gets turned on out of the box.
_________________
Jeremy
Sony G90 / Pioneer HLD-X9 / Radiance 2144 / Marantz SR5011
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
station_equation
Joined: 04 Aug 2024
Posts: 32
Location: Peoria, IL
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 3:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Totally understood, I was just referring to the separate adjustment “setting” described for that one screen size. If that hasn’t drifted in 20 years, and it gets close enough that I can play with it and make sure it’s not going to crash and brick itself, then I’ll hire out a professional calibration.
_________________
Jeremy
Sony G90 / Pioneer HLD-X9 / Radiance 2144 / Marantz SR5011
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HaydnG90
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1356
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 4:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kal pretty much said it all.
Now I know you plan to watch laser discs but you are really doing the G90 a disservice by not getting a Moome HDMI card for bluray source material. And if you really want to take it to the next level 72Hz from a Lumagen processor with native 24fps. Craig will be able to guide you.
I had a several screens over the years including a Dalite HiPower 2.8 gain (not suitable for ceiling mount though), A Stewart video matte 2.0 (horrible sparklies) and a Gen 1 Studiotek 1.3. If I was setting up a G90 today I would get a G3/G4 Studiotek 1.3 and max 110" diag size (16:9). The light output will take a huge hit going bigger and you risk tube burn (on the green primarily) even in a total light controlled room.
Another worthwhile upgrade is the darker green CE filter. Sony deliberately went for a less than optimal lighter green to max light output numbers.
I had to sell my setup when I moved to Germany and as I said I really admire anyone jumping in to the CRT pool especially in the deep end. Having Craig to assist will be a huge benefit and will ensure your ownership is the best experience possible. He has saved my butt more than once allowing me to enjoy my G90 for several more years.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 4:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kal wrote: | | Be careful of light output however as you go larger. The larger your screen, the higher your contrast setting, the faster the tubes will wear. |
That's especially true for the G90. It will burn your tubes, fast, if you run at high contrast. I don't know how to predict how long the tubes will last, but I believe the G90 (and to a lesser extent the G70) tends to eat tubes faster than most CRTs. If you want a bright image with lots of "pop," you either run a small image, or you burn through tubes quickly.
That's why enthusiasts sometimes "stacked" their projectors, aiming two CRTs at the same spot and converging both projectors together. You got roughly 2x the light output, allowing you to run a bigger image without roasting your phosphor.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HaydnG90
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1356
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 4:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="garyfritz"] | kal wrote: | | It will burn your tubes, fast, if you run at high contrast. I don't know how to predict how long the tubes will last, but I believe the G90 (and to a lesser extent the G70) tends to eat tubes faster than most CRTs. |
My G90 had significant burn after only 600 hrs, which is when I purchased it. I had to get a new tube (paid for by the seller) and upgraded the CE filter at the same time. It's a real problem of the G90, and another reason to get a proper pro calibration to minimise the risk of pushing the tubes excessively.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
