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that1crzywhtguy
Joined: 26 Mar 2017
Posts: 84
Location: Martinez, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2023 3:40 pm Post subject: G90 (and others?) Scanline Burn-In Risk? |
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I've been reading the info on my new G90 while I wait for my dallas chip to arrive, and I read about the "Scan Line Shift Function." How effective is this feature? It's not documented in much detail, so I wonder about some things:
I'm assuming this would make 480p no risk on this unit, but what about 240p? Does the shift work well enough that occasional retro gaming would be safe? How about frequent retro gaming? Like say... 50% retro games, 50% 480p/1080p content?
Excited to get this thing up and running!
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virusc
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 358
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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If you setup the G90 correctly you will not want to use 480p as the scanline will be too big even for video games and burn in risk is real even for 480p. 240p is not a option period and if you run it on a g90 it is criminal in my book. I have seen many 8" projectors with 480i 240p scanline burn never mind 9" EM machine like a G90. Barco removed smartly the scanning to 15khz on the Cine9 for that and other reasons.
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that1crzywhtguy
Joined: 26 Mar 2017
Posts: 84
Location: Martinez, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Hey there! Thanks for the reply.
I think you missed the heart of my question: I'm asking about how effective the "Scan Line Shift Function" is on the g90. Are you saying not at all? Not even for 480p? Or did you miss that bit? Thanks!
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that1crzywhtguy
Joined: 26 Mar 2017
Posts: 84
Location: Martinez, CA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:47 am Post subject: |
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I know this is old...but anyone able to weigh in on that feature?
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virusc
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 358
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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I have not used that feature no but again the g90 was not made for 480p in any sense. If it is similar to orbiting the burn in risk is not mitigated that much you just get a burn that is a little less sharp. If you have to run 480p I wonder if you could slightly defocus the CRT's. I have seen many 8" sets with 480p burn in as well. I am not sure why no one else chimed in but I am sure they would agree. The g90 is known for roasting Green tubes and quickly due to the spot size tight focus.
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that1crzywhtguy
Joined: 26 Mar 2017
Posts: 84
Location: Martinez, CA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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I have heard how quick a g90 can use up a green tube, definitely gave me pause. I'm going to try to run it on low contrast as much as possible. Was hoping that feature was very effective for versatility, but I have a DTV-943 that I'm using for 240p/480i and 480p.
Hoping to get as many hours out of both PJs before they inevitably burn up... Wish I had some spare tubes. 😔 😢
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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IMHO using a G90 for 240p/480i is like hooking a plow up to your Ferrari. It’s a waste of a good machine and burns up the tubes unnecessarily. Plow the back 40 with your tractor and save the Ferrari for sporty driving.
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that1crzywhtguy
Joined: 26 Mar 2017
Posts: 84
Location: Martinez, CA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | IMHO using a G90 for 240p/480i is like hooking a plow up to your Ferrari. It’s a waste of a good machine and burns up the tubes unnecessarily. Plow the back 40 with your tractor and save the Ferrari for sporty driving. |
I do hear ya! I specifically was hoping to learn about that feature when I read about it. I can't find any details about how it works or how effective it is.
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virusc
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 358
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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I have a DTV-943 (barco 708/cine7) and I do not like 480p on it due to the scanlines. Mine is setup very well with raster near the edge of the tubes. If your 943 has less than say 8k hours on it and you can't see large scanlines at 480p check you setup. Do you have the 943 scaler that comes with the 943? It was 720p output and I think that was the correct choice at 16;9 for that projector. If you are doing 4;3 then you would have to go higher to avoid excessive scanlines. The g90 scanlines at 480p the black part would actually be larger than the active scanline if you setup the projector correctly.
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that1crzywhtguy
Joined: 26 Mar 2017
Posts: 84
Location: Martinez, CA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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My 943 looks awesome at 480p (link to prove it: https://youtu.be/GgLVCE8I2Vg?si=IJ8Lk-SxzdYqILMo). It's the best laserdisc picture I've ever seen. My DTV-943 is designated for laserdisc and retro gaming. That's want I keep it for, and it does it so darn well. It's truly a delight for these purposes. I'm at around 3500 hours on those tubes. I balanced the wear (link: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=479352#479352) so I could utilize the whole tube face and prolong its life. I love that PJ. Wish I had an extra set of tubes so bad!
If I'm running 720p and up, I might as well use my epson 5050ub or my g90.
Anyhow, while that conversation is interesting to have, I started this thread to discuss the effectiveness of the "Scan Line Shift Function." respectfully, discussion on the merit of running different resolutions because of how they look is off topic.
I'm disappointed nobody has knowledge or experience with this function. I'm always very interested in cool features on old tech like that. Would love to learn more about it but there just isn't any info I can find.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: G90 (and others?) Scanline Burn-In Risk? |
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| that1crzywhtguy wrote: | I've been reading the info on my new G90 while I wait for my dallas chip to arrive, and I read about the "Scan Line Shift Function." How effective is this feature? It's not documented in much detail, so I wonder about some things:
I'm assuming this would make 480p no risk on this unit, but what about 240p? Does the shift work well enough that occasional retro gaming would be safe? How about frequent retro gaming? Like say... 50% retro games, 50% 480p/1080p content?
Excited to get this thing up and running! |
In addition to scan line shift function, the G90 also has a built-in line doubler.
The scan line shift simply moves the image around a bit on the tube face. It is highly effective in reducing the possibility of scan line burn. On a 96"x54" screen it will gradually cyclically move in all directions about 1".
The line doubler also takes 480 and converts it to 960p. I'm not sure what it does with incoming 240p as I have never tried it.
One nice thing about the G90 is that it has the ability to store 150 memories. What I would suggest is that for true 480 or 240, that you make specific memories for these. Instead of optimizing focus on these memories, intentional give it astigmatism. In other words, when you adjust astig, don't make the dots round, make them vertically elliptical. This will help to fill in the gaps between scan lines. I would also most likely slightly defocus 480 and 240 to further fill in the gaps.
The image will still appear perfectly sharp, and you will not see the scan lines.
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that1crzywhtguy
Joined: 26 Mar 2017
Posts: 84
Location: Martinez, CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the info Craig! That's all very fascinating! 480i to 960p would make laserdisc look great I bet! Really excited to finish setting up the g90 this week. It has been dormant after repairing that YA board long enough!
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| that1crzywhtguy wrote: | | Thanks for the info Craig! That's all very fascinating! 480i to 960p would make laserdisc look great I bet! Really excited to finish setting up the g90 this week. It has been dormant after repairing that YA board long enough! |
At the time, that line doubler was HUGE because you didn't need a $40k Faroudja scaler to make your image look good without scan lines. It may only work on the composite and s-video, but I have forgotten; it may work with the different flavors of RGB cabling as well.
Now an Lumagen XE or better has a lot more to offer than either the internal line doubler or and Faroudja.
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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