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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:45 pm Post subject: Great time to buy audio from Europe |
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one Record, yes I said RECORD  , missing from my collection for the longest time is Pink Floyd Wish you Were Here. New on Amazon, about $40.
Looked on E-bay, $28. delivered from Europe, WTF?
yes it's true, i just got , minty , brand new sealed, remastered from original analogue masters by Bernie Grundman in 2016. Be aware there is a 2019 version that was remastered digitally by Doug Sax in 2019, there are people who like both.
So take advantage of the imploding EU economy and get some cheap stuff from Europe, help those people too make some extra income as their vassal governments drive their countries into ruin.
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El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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I saw a little about that drama onon you tube but wasn't interested enough to click on it, I'm pretty sure the original MOFI closed shop , probably in the late 80's/early 90's, and then someone bought the rights to the name and their catalog at some point and brought it back into production. I have some of the old, Pink Floyd's DSOTM on MOFI is still hgihly sought atfer, mine sounds amazing
BUT, I'm not a purist. I know i gave some newer LP's that were remastered using the master tapes but 192khz 24 bit as the medium and they sound very, very good. You can fix some things in the digital realm that you just can't do on an analog console.
Then there's Dire Straits Brothers in arms, it was recorded digitally, the LP sounds soo good it will make your head swim.
Since i don't have any gear that can do 192/24 , i guess maybe my BD player? , and i don't want to buy the 800 albums i own in that format, it's easier for me to just buy a nice new LP. If it sounds really, i don't really care how it was done.
The one issue i have is a bought couple of new ones that have digital anomalies on them, which is f*cking annoying and just a result of sloppy work. One is a new Rush album , the other a Jethro Tull 2016 Brian Wilson remaster
I'd rather listen to old tape Hiss than some F-in digital quirck that jumps off the album at you
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El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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If the fact that the vast majority of the vinyl pressings from MoFi over the last 11 years was quantized into the digital domain as the first step had been revealed by analog purists using their golden ears and their exotic and esoteric systems, that would’ve been a validating feather in their cap with a big threads on WBF and the like. The fact that it wasn’t revealed by analog purists listening with their golden ears is a bit of egg on their face.
A month ago, analog purist audiophiles were presumably smug and happy spinning MoFi pressings and enjoying their sonic bliss and superiority from what they believed was all analog purity. Today, many of them are pissed and want their money back. Of course the MoFi vinyl they were spinning a month ago sounds the same as it does today (save for the mechanical degradation of repeatedly dragging a hard stylus thorough a softer vinyl groove).
In a way, MoFi just conducted a decade long DBT and the analog purist audiophile community en masse failed to pass it. It’s like the (supposedly) pure analog pressing of WYWH you just procured. I’d wager if the labels and jacket were swapped with the good digitally mastered WYWH pressing you referenced, you wouldn’t discern it either.
I agree with your comments about BIA, it was also outstandingly mastered in its original CD release.
| draganm wrote: | | I'd rather listen to old tape Hiss than some F-in digital quirck that jumps off the album at you |
Of course you know that the over use of compression during the loudness war era was separate from just music being quantized into the digital domain. Right?
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| El Duderino wrote: | If the fact that the vast majority of the vinyl pressings from MoFi over the last 11 years was quantized into the digital domain as the first step had been revealed by analog purists using their golden ears and their exotic and esoteric systems, that would’ve been a validating feather in their cap with a big threads on WBF and the like. The fact that it wasn’t revealed by analog purists listening with their golden ears is a bit of egg on their face.
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I don't hang around the audiophile forums anymore, but back then, i do recall a large number of people saying they were sure the newer MOFI was digitally sourced. I read this on places like the Steve Hoffman forum (Hoffman is a famous recording engineer) and a few other forums too. At the time, A number of repeated inquires to MOFI by buyers that were never answered pretty much sealed the opinion. The consensus was " some of these sound good, but be aware they are not pure analog". So to say " stupid audiophiles, no one noticed hahahah " is not true.
This was a long time ago, like 10 years ago, so what I don't understand is why all this broo-haha now? I think it's newer people in the game who just bought their first high end TT in the last few years, and they bought a bunch of Audiophile LP's at Best Buy
which happen to stock a lot of new MOFI. They feel betrayed, which is a common theme across our society, and since voting isn't worth a sh*t, i think taking it out on some company is the next best thing.
whatever, I find it amusing. When i buy a new LP I am fully expecting some digital intrusion, BUT, it better be full hiRez 192/24 , it better sound good, and the vinyl better be flawless physically.
There are actually 2 versions of the WYWH on new vinyl LP, both by very famous, highly respected engineers.
1) The 2011 version done by Doug Sax and is known openly to have been done digitally. This version has a lot of followers in the Audiophile world, it's edgy and sharp, and some people like that
2) the 2016 version done from the master tapes and allegedly all analog by Bernie Grundman for sony records. This is the version sold by the Pink Floyd store and the one i bought off fleaby. It's described as smoother, morel laid back. Some people say if you really love this album it's worth owning both.
AAMOF, this version is said to be so good that the only version that is slightly better is the original UK pressing, but if you want a clean version of that it's about $300. + postage on ebay
| El Duderino wrote: | | draganm wrote: | | I'd rather listen to old tape Hiss than some F-in digital quirck that jumps off the album at you |
Of course you know that the over use of compression during the loudness war era was separate from just music being quantized into the digital domain. Right? |
yes, i know all about compression wars in the 80's, but there's more to it than simply that.
CD is sh*t, Red-book is a flawed, subpar audio standard and that will never change. I have identical albums here for U2, the Joshua Tree album, both on vintage CD my wife bought when it was brand new and an old LP , just before they quit pressing them.
The difference is not subtle, the LP is so much better even a half-deaf old fart could hear it. LP has fuller and deeper Bass, there is no gritty edge to the high frequencies, there is a better holographic imagery due to more accurate stereo phazing and channel separation. It's night and day
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El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | so what I don't understand is why all this broo-haha now? |
Huh? You don’t understand the brouhaha? The analog purist audiophile community is up in arms with MoFi because they feel they were duped, mislead, overcharged, ripped off, and lied to by them. They belived they were getting kosher analog and then revelation broke that most of the MoFi mu shu they had been eating over recent years actually had digital pork at the heart of it. No, It’s not from newbies buying audiophile LP's at Best Buy.
A good example is the renowned and outspoken audiophile Michael Fremer (Stereophile, AnalogPlanet, Absolute Sound, etc). He’s uber butt-hurt over Mofi-gate. He publishes a list of his top 100 all analog LPs. His list had (12) Mobile Fidelity titles on it. Since the bomb dropped and Mofi has come clean with the fact that the vast majority of their pressings over the past 11 years were digitized to DSD as an initial step in their workflow, they’re in damage control mode and updating their website with more transparency. Checking the (12) Mofi titles on Fremers all-analog list shows at least (6) of them wasn’t all analog at all. Woops. I don’t find details for (5) of them and only one on his list from them says it was actually all analog. His golden ears obviously didn’t hear the digital in most of them else why would he include them in his all analog top 100 list?
If the golden eared audiophile community could tell by listening all this time, and they could tell what LPs workflow had been digitized and which ones were pure analog, and it was common audiophile knowledge, MoFi-gate wouldn’t have blown up and there wouldn’t be the brouhaha. The brouhaha and class action lawsuits is precisely because Mofi wasn’t transparent about the digitization step in their LP production, and the golden eared audiophiles couldn’t tell without Mofi disclosing it to them.
| draganm wrote: | | allegedly all analog by Bernie Grundman for sony records. |
I like how you say allegedly. How would you know it was truly all analog? By listening to it? Or because that’s what Sony Records and Bernie told you? Obviously the analog purist audiophile wants and needs to be told if a given LP was from digitized sources or not, else Mofi-gate wouldn’t have blown up.
| draganm wrote: | | When i buy a new LP I am fully expecting some digital intrusion, BUT, it better be full hiRez 192/24 |
If you’re expecting your LP’s to have digitization, and 192kHz/24b is a good enough bar for you, there are several outlets for that format. Hell, given the revelation that the vast majority of Mofi pressings was first digitized to DSD (after meticulously adjusting azimuth for each reel and after every spice), an audiophile would be better served by purchasing their DSD SACDs. It would be much closer to the ‘Original Master Recording’ they digitized to DSD. Not only would it be cheaper, it wouldn’t have been subjected to RIAA EQ, compensation for inner track groves, the surface noise, and the myriad of other compromises and limitations of vinyl. Like the compromise of 33.3 RPM. Like your comment about channel separation. (LPs can only muster ~30 db). Mofi offers many two disk 12” 45RPM albums, except it turns out, most all of them have seen quantization into the digital domain. 
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| El Duderino wrote: | | A good example is the renowned and outspoken audiophile Michael Fremer (Stereophile, AnalogPlanet, Absolute Sound, etc). He’s uber butt-hurt over Mofi-gate. He publishes a list of his top 100 all analog LPs. His list had (12) Mobile Fidelity titles on it. Since the bomb dropped and Mofi has come clean with the fact that the vast majority of their pressings over the past 11 years were digitized to DSD as an initial step in their workflow, they’re in damage control mode and updating their website with more transparency. Checking the (12) Mofi titles on Fremers all-analog list shows at least (6) of them wasn’t all analog at all. Woops. I don’t find details for (5) of them and only one on his list from them says it was actually all analog. His golden ears obviously didn’t hear the digital in most of them else why would he include them in his all analog top 100 list? |
your showing your ignorance or cherry picking facts to make your argument. Fremmers collection goes back decades, and since you missed the part where i explained that Mobile Fidelity closed shop in the 1999 and was re-launched as a completely different company, you have no clue as to what version of the LP he has in his collection. Chances that he bought his "top 100" from the new company and hasn't owned it prior is probably zero
I have a lot of MFSL vinly pressing in my collection, from the company that existed 1958 to 1999, NONE of them are from the new company.
| Quote: | | On July 14, 2022, Michael Esposito, a record store owner and YouTuber, released a video on his YouTube channel "The 'In' Groove" stating that "pretty reliable sources" informed him that, contrary to the company's official statements and marketing, MFSL had been using digital masters instead of analogue for years. John Wood, the label's executive president, saw Esposito's video and then invited him to California for a tour of their business. A second video was produced with Esposito interviewing MFSL staff, where they confirmed that they were using Direct Stream Digital files when creating their vinyl masters for duplication. The staff members stated that at least 60% of all titles used this process by the end of 2011, and that the process was also being used for the label's Ultradisc One-Step releases, which were previously marketed as coming directly from the original master tapes. The revelation generated controversy over not only Mobile Fidelity's integrity, given the company's marketing and the stigmatization of digital audio in audiophile circles, but also the extent of analog audio's perceived merits over digital audio. |
| El Duderino wrote: | | If you’re expecting your LP’s to have digitization, and 192kHz/24b is a good enough bar for you, there are several outlets for that format. |
like what? buying it all on BD? or building a computer with 10 Terabytes of memory?
streaming it?
| El Duderino wrote: | | an audiophile would be better served by purchasing their DSD SACDs. It would be much closer to the ‘Original Master Recording’ they digitized to DSD. Not only would it be cheaper, it wouldn’t have been subjected to RIAA EQ, compensation for inner track groves, the surface noise, and the myriad of other compromises and limitations of vinyl. Like the compromise of 33.3 RPM. Like your comment about channel separation. (LPs can only muster ~30 db). |
ever sit down and actually listen to the same album on LP and SACD? unless you have done it your comments aren't worth a sh*t
I have listened to both many times, i listened to SACD using 5 channal analog output from a high end player to make sure my preamp wasn't affecting the audio. The LP was clearly superior, not only I heard it but the person who bought the player over expecting it to be better heard it.
SACD is just CD with an S in front of it, same sh*t, different label
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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SINCE 2011
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/mofi-sued-over-claims-its-analog-albums-were-made-with-digital-mastering-tech-1234580198/
| Quote: | | The suit alleges that, before 2011, MoFi’s claims about its analog albums were “largely true.” But by the end of 2011, the suit states, 60 percent of MoFi’s vinyl releases “incorporated DSD, and MoFi’s last non-DSD recording was released in 2020.” The suit goes on to state that after MoFi’s engineers acknowledged the use of digital technology last month, “MoFi moved quickly to rectify its misleading advertising and disclose the use of digital remastering in the Records.” |
anyone who bought a MFSL in the last 15 years and thought it was pure analog just wasn't paying attention. Every audiophile forum i ever visited had discussions where people stated openly to anyone listening that many of the albums were digitally sourced. They didn't need anyone to " confirm it"
I could go back and find the posts if this was an honest discussion and not just Duderino sh*t slinging
That said, even the old MFSL stuff was not perfect. Some of it was perfect, like Dark side of the moon. Others, not so great, like Beatles Abbey Road. I have 3 LP versions of Abbey road, both the original US release , the old 1980 MOFI and then one remastered by Ringo Star in 2009.
the newest one is clearly superior. Was it manipulated digitally in HiRez audio, probably. One of the problems (to my ears) with the originals is both the Bass and percussion is muted to the point of almost not being there. The 2009 version is excellent
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