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Tim in Phoenix
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4409
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:23 pm Post subject: Are the Moome devices 4K Capable? |
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Anyone?
Is anyone projecting 4K on their CRT? I am particularly wondering about the MUX unit.
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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If you have one that is HDMI 1.4 capable, that allows 4K but only at 24 or 30 Hz. I don't think Moome made an HDMI input card yet that supports more than HDMI 1.3 so the answer is no.
The video signal path constraints would also ensure a greatly degraded video experience. The video bandwidth requirement for 4K-60 is 600 MHz of clean video bandwidth. The best Mike Parker has been able to pull out of any neck cards and VIM yet is around 300 MHz.
4K is a dream, MY dream, but I don't expect it to come true.
It is possible to output 4K over analog with SOME obsolete video cards. There's a topic in here somewhere about it where a guy
in Germany was doing it. Search "4K CRT" in the forum and you should find it.
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Tim in Phoenix
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4409
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Guys
I am particularly wondering about the MUX unit. Is it 1.4? My processor will make it 60hz
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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I just checked the manual, and no. It's not up to HDMI 1.4 unless the user's manual posted in the Moome products subforum is an obsolete version.
Both Sony and Barco HDMI input cards support HDMI 1.4. But the Marquee version is still at 1.3.
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greg9518lc
Joined: 19 Apr 2016
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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Cm whats the difference between the HDMI 1.3 marquee and the HDMI 1.4 Sony moome card..
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VDC 9518LC modded: I do not sell or promote mods only interested in the best PQ possible......
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racerxnet
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 362
Location: Illinois
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greg9518lc
Joined: 19 Apr 2016
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone have a CRT projector capable of handeling more than the 200Mhz the Marquee HDMI 1.3 card will do.
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VDC 9518LC modded: I do not sell or promote mods only interested in the best PQ possible......
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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Kurt is running 4K on his CRT, not sure how, but he is doing it
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racerxnet
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 362
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe Kurt is taking 4k and downscaling it to 1080p with the added color space/resolution benefits? Or a slightly higher output. Just some thoughts.
MAK
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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Another thread revealed the most probable answer. Use a Sony HDMI 1.4 input board and build an adapter to run it in a Marquee.
The adapter consists of two connectors and a few wires. I don't have the specifics of it but take a look here:
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=470235#470235
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greg9518lc
Joined: 19 Apr 2016
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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Cm yoi might want to contact the one that did it. Google
is your friend👌
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 2:39 am Post subject: |
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Mike Parker says he's been able to push as high as 310 MHz bandwidth on highly modified neck cards and VIM boards, so you might want to ask him about it.
In principle, the way to get analog 4K is to get a 4K HDMI receiver chip, pre-process the signal through an HDCP stripping device, and run the chip's digital outputs to 24 bit, 600 MHz DACs that generate the RGB outputs. Pull the sync signals out and process them as well and send them on alongside the RGB outputs.
The first hard part is finding reasonably priced 600 MHz 24 bit DACs.
The second hard part (really not that hard) is building the line level buffer amps that can handle the 600 MHz signals.
The third part IS the HARD part: Getting full bandwidth 600 MHz video into the CRT with 30 watts of drive. (Actual spec
on the tubes is 29 watts maximum drive.)
Bandwidth alone is easy. Power alone is easy. High power and high bandwidth together is difficult and expensive.
Especially when it needs to be clean drive without noise.
Last edited by cmjohnson on Mon May 01, 2017 7:10 pm; edited 2 times in total
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| cmjohnson wrote: | Mike Parker says he's been able to push as high as 310 MHz bandwidth on highly modified neck cards and VIM boards, so you might want to ask him about it.
In principle, the way to get analog 4K is to get a 4K HDMI receiver chip, pre-process the signal through an HDCP stripping device, and run the chip's digital outputs to 24 bit, 600 MHz DACs that generate the RGB outputs. Pull the sync signals out and process them as well and send them on alongside the RGB outputs.
The first hard part is finding reasonably priced 600 MHz 400 MHz DACs.
The second hard part (really not that hard) is building the line level buffer amps that can handle the 600 MHz signals.
The third part IS the HARD part: Getting full bandwidth 600 MHz video into the CRT with 30 watts of drive. (Actual spec
on the tubes is 29 watts maximum drive.)
Bandwidth alone is easy. Power alone is easy. High power and high bandwidth together is difficult and expensive.
Especially when it needs to be clean drive without noise. |
Mike's boards may sync to 300mhz but it's far from being a reference caliber image. Or more simply put there's a big difference between doing something and doing something well. Getting 195mhz through the chain cleanly is more than a challenge as is.
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Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: |
Mike's boards may sync to 300mhz but it's far from being a reference caliber image. Or more simply put there's a big difference between doing something and doing something well. Getting 195mhz through the chain cleanly is more than a challenge as is. |
It really bothers me that a few of your guy are so quick to state what my work is capable of, based on a board set that you got a few years ago, especially when I made it clear I was not able to know where they were, because my test bed was not operational.
But that has since changed, and things are very far from where they were at the time.
And concerning being able to get the boards to do 300mhz, well that was also verified and witnessed when one of you was here.
Now let me also add, that both VDC and Electrohome engineers and I'll include a few others, who has acknowledge that I was able to take the boards beyond their original design and expectation. So if able to make them double in bandwidth, why would I not able able to make them do anything else.
Getting 195mhz through the chain is nothing for me. Not at all. In fact, there was a reason to dial the boards down and I had posted that previously. And so that it can be known, I also have a set of HIGH Bandwidth neck boards. In both VDC version and original design.
So I have several boards sets, that can range from 200mhz to beyond 300mhz. And I'm able to make that happen using either 02 or 03 VIM.
Anyway, and that's why I've been working on getting a few people to stop by so this can be demonstrated. So to put a stop to the wrongful info that's being posted from time to time.
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greg9518lc
Joined: 19 Apr 2016
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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Mp would you mind to show a 300Mhz SMPTE pattern with all 3 tubes, so we can see how well it resolves and tracks, and maintain uniform focus all the way out in the corners.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | jbmeyer13 wrote: |
Mike's boards may sync to 300mhz but it's far from being a reference caliber image. Or more simply put there's a big difference between doing something and doing something well. Getting 195mhz through the chain cleanly is more than a challenge as is. |
It really bothers me that a few of your guy are so quick to state what my work is capable of, based on a board set that you got a few years ago, especially when I made it clear I was not able to know where they were, because my test bed was not operational.
But that has since changed, and things are very far from where they were at the time.
And concerning being able to get the boards to do 300mhz, well that was also verified and witnessed when one of you was here.
Now let me also add, that both VDC and Electrohome engineers and I'll include a few others, who has acknowledge that I was able to take the boards beyond their original design and expectation. So if able to make them double in bandwidth, why would I not able able to make them do anything else.
Getting 195mhz through the chain is nothing for me. Not at all. In fact, there was a reason to dial the boards down and I had posted that previously. And so that it can be known, I also have a set of HIGH Bandwidth neck boards. In both VDC version and original design.
So I have several boards sets, that can range from 200mhz to beyond 300mhz. And I'm able to make that happen using either 02 or 03 VIM.
Anyway, and that's why I've been working on getting a few people to stop by so this can be demonstrated. So to put a stop to the wrongful info that's being posted from time to time. |
I'm running your vims and they are fundamentally consistent with your current offering. While I'm sure you've made some viable tweaks over the past 6-months these do not offer seismic improvements to BW. It's the same mini board and from what you've told me in the past that was the biggest step forward for your mods.
Tell me- how many customers do you have who are even pushing 195mhz through the video chain on a daily basis when watching content? I have both a Radiance and HDFury4 to run 1080p/72 at 195mhz through my Marquee. I have a clean, fully tweaked set up and I'm basing my comments on both real world viewing and findings from a pattern generator.
When I say "challenge" I'm referring to the total end to end; not just the PJ. For argument sake, even if your boards could go to 300mhz cleanly you'll never know unless you have a very high powered VP's which allows you to run 1080p/72/96 and shift the raster ringing out of the image. You don't have such a video processor so your not in a position where you can definitively comment on such performance. Now if you fix your glycol issues, swap out which ever tubes are causing issues and then have Craig Rounds stop by with a Radiance Pro (and have him fully calibrate) you'll be capable of performing a thorough real world evaluation at 300mhz. If that happens, I'll be the first one in the car heading down to your place 
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Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| greg9518lc wrote: | | Mp would you mind to show a 300Mhz SMPTE pattern with all 3 tubes, so we can see how well it resolves and tracks, and maintain uniform focus all the way out in the corners. |
Absolutely not. mainly because that is something Ive done so many times before in the past. And if you did search you should be able to find it.
But no, I will not get into a needless pissing contest to prove something that was proven so many times before.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: |
I'm running your vims and they are fundamentally consistent with your current offering. While I'm sure you've made some viable tweaks over the past 6-months these do not offer seismic improvements to BW. It's the same mini board and from what you've told me in the past that was the biggest step forward for your mods |
The VIM you have is very different from what I've been using lately or for some months. That Vim required much peaking, whereas, that is not the case with what I'm doing now. And if you go back you'll find that I've also been running an 02 WITHOUT any peaking at all.
| Quote: | | Tell me- how many customers do you have who are even pushing 195mhz through the video chain on a daily basis when watching content? I have both a Radiance and HDFury4 to run 1080p/72 at 195mhz through my Marquee. I have a clean, fully tweaked set up and I'm basing my comments on both real world viewing and findings from a pattern generator |
You are basing your comments on what you presently have or what you had some two years ago. And based on the screenshot I've seen with you using my 02 VIm and the new neck boards you guys have been claiming are better than anything I've been doing, there was a substantial problem with the SMPTE pattern.
I have one or maybe two who are running 1080p 72.
| Quote: | | When I say "challenge" I'm referring to the total end to end; not just the PJ. For argument sake, even if your boards could go to 300mhz cleanly you'll never know unless you have a very high powered VP's which allows you to run 1080p/72/96 and shift the raster ringing out of the image. You don't have such a video processor so your not in a position where you can definitively comment on such performance |
You guys need to learn a lot about video and the proper testing of it before making such claims. There is no requirement to use a processor for verification. The verification was done using a professional test pattern generator, that verified the end results using the SMPTE as one means. The industry does not require nor state that a processor would be necessary to verify the end results. My testing was for the video chain, and the source you mention was not required. So I would not need the customers source and to verify and state what the video chain itself is capable of.
In fact, none of the projectors were ever sold stating what source to use or that a particular source would be required.
| Quote: | | Now if you fix your glycol issues, swap out which ever tubes are causing issues and then have Craig Rounds stop by with a Radiance Pro (and have him fully calibrate) you'll be capable of performing a thorough real world evaluation at 300mhz. If that happens, I'll be the first one in the car heading down to your place |
For 300mhz to be used here, clearly indicates a lack of understanding a high bandwidth video chain, when at that high of an bandwidth performance, there could be other problems. That is why I've been indicating a 200mhz video chain. And that is why it is so NOISE FREE.
Now concerning changing a tube and having someone come by to verify the performance, that as well would not be necessary, because a video chain that able to display 300mhz using the SMPTE does not mean it is a high performance video chain. There are so many other things to also consider, and that is why the original makers of these projectors were not able to solve those problems. They could have if they would have spent much time laboring to work these flaws out. And if you guys have been successful in doing such, good for you. But it's still doubtful, and I say that based on talking to a many engineer.
So if you guys have made some strives towards a better video chain, great. But do have the decency to not defame what someone else is doing, especially since you have no idea.
Again, any discussion on 300mhz is simply a stupid conversation for a lot of reasons technically. With the main one being I've already proven that, to include it has very little to do with a high performance video chain performance because we're only running 1920X1080P 60/72
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="mp20748"]
| Quote: | | The VIM you have is very different from what I've been using lately or for some months. That Vim required much peaking, whereas, that is not the case with what I'm doing now. And if you go back you'll find that I've also been running an 02 WITHOUT any peaking at all. |
No peaking on my boards; can't speak for anyone elses.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | You are basing your comments on what you presently have or what you had some two years ago. And based on the screenshot I've seen with you using my 02 VIm and the new neck boards you guys have been claiming are better than anything I've been doing, there was a substantial problem with the SMPTE pattern. |
I have one or maybe two who are running 1080p 72. |
You have no screen shot from my VIM's so don't mix me up with Greg, Kurt or anyone else. I've also never made any claims about "doing" something better than you. Been a long time supporter of your mods. This is my SMPTE using your VIM
| Quote: | | When I say "challenge" I'm referring to the total end to end; not just the PJ. For argument sake, even if your boards could go to 300mhz cleanly you'll never know unless you have a very high powered VP's which allows you to run 1080p/72/96 and shift the raster ringing out of the image. You don't have such a video processor so your not in a position where you can definitively comment on such performance |
| Quote: |
You guys need to learn a lot about video and the proper testing of it before making such claims. There is no requirement to use a processor for verification. The verification was done using a professional test pattern generator, that verified the end results using the SMPTE as one means. The industry does not require nor state that a processor would be necessary to verify the end results. My testing was for thew video chain, and the source that's being used was not required. So I would not need the customers source and to verify and state what the video chain itself is capable of. |
First off, you've never posted any such evidence of a SMPTE with your current mods (with all 3 guns on) so you've never proven any of your recent claims publicly. This is in reference to your response to Greg's request for you to post visual proof. As you have pointed out to me so many times before the SMPTE is not the end all be all and that's why we need to view real world content in addition to looking at test patterns. As you state below, there could be a host of other problems that the SMPTE doesn't address. You are unable to view non-test pattern content at 195mhz so you have to rely on feedback from your testers (which I have been for a long time).
| Quote: | | Now if you fix your glycol issues, swap out which ever tubes are causing issues and then have Craig Rounds stop by with a Radiance Pro (and have him fully calibrate) you'll be capable of performing a thorough real world evaluation at 300mhz. If that happens, I'll be the first one in the car heading down to your place |
| Quote: | For 300mhz to be used here, clearly indicates a lack of understanding a high bandwidth video chain, when at that high of an bandwidth performance, there could be other problems. That is why I've been indicating a 200mhz video chain. And that is why it is so NOISE FREE.
Now concerning changing a tube and having someone come by to verify the performance, that as well would not be necessary, because a video chain that able to display 300mhz using the SMPTE does not mean it is a high performance video chain. There are so many other things to also consider, and that is why the original makers of these projectors were not able to solve those problems. They could have if they would have spent much time laboring to work these flaws out. And if you guys have been successful in doing such, good for you. But it's still doubtful, and I say that based on talking to a many engineer. |
That's kid of my point; 300mhz is both unecessary and unfounded.
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Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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Having 300 MHz bandwidth available opens the door to greater resolutions than 1080p-72 .
Displaying greater than 1080p via HDMI is possible even with HDMI 1.3 compliant input cards,
if you have a source that can handle that. (HTPC with a sufficiently good graphics card will do it.)
Now, 4K, that would take 600 MHz of clean video bandwidth. If we had that much bandwidth, if we could get 4K into
the projector, I don't know if that resolution could even be realized in the CRT itself due to internal capacitances. Even
the best lenses may or may not be good enough. I suspect they're inadequate for properly resolving 4K.
But I think there's room for some good viewing above 1080p and short of 4K. So I'm quite interested in higher bandwidth video chain modifications.
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