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stridsvognen
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:46 am Post subject: |
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I will check these out later.
Kane has been on Scott Wilkinson's htgeeks podcasts a couple of times. I think he was just on there a couple of weeks ago.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:45 am Post subject: |
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Yeah I watched one allready and should wait with comment till the last one 
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Nice that he is talking about the connectivity and means the hdmi but there is an internet router in between in my case  Anyway will watch the rest too.
He when he talks about dynamic range he needs a display to show the higher range might that be a crt?
Like the 16:9 layer 
When I think about this I would say that the old way of thinking was to make the video for one type of display only wether that is crt or something else. The new way of thinking might be to offer a flexible container that can be adapted by the display itself. Nice idea!
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:41 am Post subject: |
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I'm surprised everybody is so complimentary. Did you guys miss the part in the first video where he talks about how video standards up to and including HD and Blu-ray were all designed to accommodate CRT's color space, and that with Rec. 2020, that he was excited to finally be getting away from that to render an image with far more color information in it? To put it another way, he's excited we're finally not being held up by the limited color space offered by CRT.
So, when I see Strids say something like, "...think what UHD can do for the best high bandwidth CRT systems," I wonder why would you want to? Even if you could design some über-crazy high-bandwidth analog signal chain to handle UHD resolution, you'd only be watching half - the less important half in many people's opinion - of the signal. Sounds like a huge compromise to me.
SC
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KellenerSptM5
Joined: 08 Mar 2009
Posts: 198
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:34 am Post subject: Re: Hollywoods vision of UHD by Joe Kane |
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It can do nothing. CRT, according to Kane, is effectively dead and it's what has been the limiting factor in the advancement of HD/UHD content.
Those 'high bandwidth' systems would be a disappointment in the world of UHD content. They would display none of the increased proposed color gamut and none of the advances in high dynamic range. Max resolution is only a very small part of the advances on the horizon.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | I'm surprised everybody is so complimentary. Did you guys miss the part in the first video where he talks about how video standards up to and including HD and Blu-ray were all designed to accommodate CRT's color space, and that with Rec. 2020, that he was excited to finally be getting away from that to render an image with far more color information in it? To put it another way, he's excited we're finally not being held up by the limited color space offered by CRT.
So, when I see Strids say something like, "...think what UHD can do for the best high bandwidth CRT systems," I wonder why would you want to? Even if you could design some über-crazy high-bandwidth analog signal chain to handle UHD resolution, you'd only be watching half - the less important half in many people's opinion - of the signal. Sounds like a huge compromise to me.
SC |
Yes, but he accented throughout the video to think of UHD more like a container. So when the display reports back it is able to do Rec.709 and 1080p, it will get that, but because of the container's higher color resolution it will look better on "now regular" display than with current signals.
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:31 am Post subject: |
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I also think I remember he said that itu 2020 was a failure because there where only spikes in the spectrum. He said that there was more differential when lets say the red spectrum is broader. I looked it up and he said more people agreed on the color when the spectrum was broader. When I think of this I remember my uhp digital lamp that could not itself produce red but had it filtered from yellow. I think he is saying we need real yellow and magenta and cyan in the material and not mix it. I am not sure what he means. I had a full spectrum xenon lamp that did look better than uhp in bright scenes had much more 3d effect, depth and realism (conformed by the buyer) but was awful at black where it actually looked red. Any explaining or links on further reading on the spec stuff would be appreciated. I have the feeling that red is a very important color to get right and broad spectrum from the box that is your projector.
http://vimeo.com/105361664 after one minute.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:54 am Post subject: |
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uhp and xenon
crt
At least CRT has real red. Jo thinks that different people see slightly different colours and therefore we need a broader spectrum in the recording material. If not than he thinks the producer and the other guys making the movie will not think the same about the pictures. At his home with a projector with very broad spectrum (does he have xenon?) there was much more agreement.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | I'm surprised everybody is so complimentary. Did you guys miss the part in the first video where he talks about how video standards up to and including HD and Blu-ray were all designed to accommodate CRT's color space, and that with Rec. 2020, that he was excited to finally be getting away from that to render an image with far more color information in it? To put it another way, he's excited we're finally not being held up by the limited color space offered by CRT.
So, when I see Strids say something like, "...think what UHD can do for the best high bandwidth CRT systems," I wonder why would you want to? Even if you could design some über-crazy high-bandwidth analog signal chain to handle UHD resolution, you'd only be watching half - the less important half in many people's opinion - of the signal. Sounds like a huge compromise to me.
SC |
It seems you did not get the hole container thing.
No one with just a bit of logic will try push a 4K resolution into a CRT.
But some of us have a bandwidth who alows to display a full 1080P 72-96hz pixel clock.
And if the container features UHD RGB 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 14bit REC.2020 and a high native framerate, lets say 48 or 60 Hz.
Then we will see huge inprovements on a 1080P display who can resolve the full 1080P signal.
We can then select 1080P REC 709, 12 bit 4:4:4 60 Hz for the pipeline we run, as the analog part wont feel more stress from a improved digital chain/ source.
Emagine the super Sharp image a high native framerate will bring, and the smoothness in colors with 12 bit 4:4:4 native RGB colorspace.
Everything will move from upsample to downsample, we might like to run 90 or 96hz on a CRT so there we would need some aditional processing.
Even your JVC projector will look better, not that it will ever compete with the best CRT but it should also benefit from downsampling the source material
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KellenerSptM5
Joined: 08 Mar 2009
Posts: 198
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | I'm surprised everybody is so complimentary. Did you guys miss the part in the first video where he talks about how video standards up to and including HD and Blu-ray were all designed to accommodate CRT's color space, and that with Rec. 2020, that he was excited to finally be getting away from that to render an image with far more color information in it? To put it another way, he's excited we're finally not being held up by the limited color space offered by CRT.
So, when I see Strids say something like, "...think what UHD can do for the best high bandwidth CRT systems," I wonder why would you want to? Even if you could design some über-crazy high-bandwidth analog signal chain to handle UHD resolution, you'd only be watching half - the less important half in many people's opinion - of the signal. Sounds like a huge compromise to me.
SC |
It seems you did not get the hole container thing.
No one with just a bit of logic will try push a 4K resolution into a CRT.
But some of us have a bandwidth who alows to display a full 1080P 72-96hz pixel clock.
And if the container features UHD RGB 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 14bit REC.2020 and a high native framerate, lets say 48 or 60 Hz.
Then we will see huge inprovements on a 1080P display who can resolve the full 1080P signal.
We can then select 1080P REC 709, 12 bit 4:4:4 60 Hz for the pipeline we run, as the analog part wont feel more stress from a improved digital chain/ source.
Emagine the super Sharp image a high native framerate will bring, and the smoothness in colors with 12 bit 4:4:4 native RGB colorspace.
Everything will move from upsample to downsample, we might like to run 90 or 96hz on a CRT so there we would need some aditional processing.
Even your JVC projector will look better, not that it will ever compete with the best CRT but it should also benefit from downsampling the source material |
None of what you have said is part of UHD or is currently proposed by any manufacturer/studio. The only person actively pushing this concept seems to be Joe Kane. It is not 'Hollywoods vision of UHD'.
CRT cannot reproduce the color space in REC.2020, CRTs can't reproduce anything above REC.709. The entire point of REC.2020 is to get away from the limitations of CRT and into the advantages other display technologies bring into the industry.
So, even if you could display the resolution of UHD, you would never see the actual advantages UHD actually brings to the table, e.g. expanded gamut, high dynamic range and improved gamma.
High bandwidth has nothing to do with the actual physical limitations of the CRT phosphor.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| KellenerSptM5 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | I'm surprised everybody is so complimentary. Did you guys miss the part in the first video where he talks about how video standards up to and including HD and Blu-ray were all designed to accommodate CRT's color space, and that with Rec. 2020, that he was excited to finally be getting away from that to render an image with far more color information in it? To put it another way, he's excited we're finally not being held up by the limited color space offered by CRT.
So, when I see Strids say something like, "...think what UHD can do for the best high bandwidth CRT systems," I wonder why would you want to? Even if you could design some über-crazy high-bandwidth analog signal chain to handle UHD resolution, you'd only be watching half - the less important half in many people's opinion - of the signal. Sounds like a huge compromise to me.
SC |
It seems you did not get the hole container thing.
No one with just a bit of logic will try push a 4K resolution into a CRT.
But some of us have a bandwidth who alows to display a full 1080P 72-96hz pixel clock.
And if the container features UHD RGB 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 14bit REC.2020 and a high native framerate, lets say 48 or 60 Hz.
Then we will see huge inprovements on a 1080P display who can resolve the full 1080P signal.
We can then select 1080P REC 709, 12 bit 4:4:4 60 Hz for the pipeline we run, as the analog part wont feel more stress from a improved digital chain/ source.
Emagine the super Sharp image a high native framerate will bring, and the smoothness in colors with 12 bit 4:4:4 native RGB colorspace.
Everything will move from upsample to downsample, we might like to run 90 or 96hz on a CRT so there we would need some aditional processing.
Even your JVC projector will look better, not that it will ever compete with the best CRT but it should also benefit from downsampling the source material |
None of what you have said is part of UHD or is currently proposed by any manufacturer/studio. The only person actively pushing this concept seems to be Joe Kane. It is not 'Hollywoods vision of UHD'.
CRT cannot reproduce the color space in REC.2020, CRTs can't reproduce anything above REC.709. The entire point of REC.2020 is to get away from the limitations of CRT and into the advantages other display technologies bring into the industry.
So, even if you could display the resolution of UHD, you would never see the actual advantages UHD actually brings to the table, e.g. expanded gamut, high dynamic range and improved gamma.
High bandwidth has nothing to do with the actual physical limitations of the CRT phosphor. |
Forget about the luma resolution for a moment.
What UHD display can display a REC 2020, as i understand its a useless format, and would only be usefull as a container format, as Joe Kane explains it.
Still ill expect a lot of benefits from a 4K format if it will have high native framerate/ faster camera shutter= sharper image.
Better bit dept, and a 4:2:2 color space, that will make a difference also for CRT.
No one knows how UHD will look in the future, so we can just hope they wont make it a very limited format like all others, and make a format where most displays today also will benefit from downsampling the signal, instead of upsampling as we do today.
You might be right that UHD will end as Rec 709 4:2:0 24hz, and that it will be more for selling hardware than image quality.
And get a space next to 3D movies.
Lets hope someone with a vision can push for something better.
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