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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:06 pm Post subject: Has anyone tried replacing glycol with a fluorinated fluid? |
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We use a product call Galden here for cooling our X-Ray tubes in their testing chambers. It's non conductive, non corrosive to rubbers(bellows). In talking with the engineers they said they tested glycol and found this fluorinated fluid to be 55% cooler. You can dump a whole gallon in a running projector and it will not effect it according to the engineers. The stuff is very expensive but I might be able to get my hands on some if anyone is wanting to do a drain and fill to test with. We pay somewhere around 400 bucks a gallon for it.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone tried replacing glycol with a fluorinated flu |
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| digitalayon wrote: | | We pay somewhere around 400 bucks a gallon for it. |
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Tim in Phoenix
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4409
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Guys
Glycol was chosen as the LC coolant for several reasons. It has certain optical properties and bends light a certain way due to its density. It has a low freezing point and it is used to deice airplanes. And it is reasonably priced in the $40/gallon range. A replacement for glycol will need to meet the first two specs at the very least. Good luck with your experiments.
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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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I do not know on the clarity stuff or how to measure it....that is what the testing would be for. I know it is super clear like water. I have no clue on the density properties. Again more testing needed. But I am sure the 2 are pretty close in optical performance. One is just way way cheaper.
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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You can probably find documentation on it that gives its index of refraction. MSDS maybe?
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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | You can probably find documentation on it that gives its index of refraction. MSDS maybe? |
LOL....I have asked the guys in optical.....they will do that very test next week.
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Tim in Phoenix
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4409
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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Guys
Electrohome was using triethylene glycol/water, 90/10 in the Marquee tubes, so that is the target for index of refraction.
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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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ok in decimals the guys told me they already had it listed @ 1.283 for refraction.
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daanbeo
Joined: 12 Oct 2010
Posts: 98
Location: netherlands
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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| daanbeo wrote: | http://refractiveindex.info/?group=LIQUIDS&material=Ethyleneglycol
might work but lower then propylene and ethylene glycol glycerol |
At that difference, I do not think it is enough to notice. What if this makes the tubes last to 30,000 hours instead of just 20,000 because of cooling? No corrosive properties to items like bellows and no fungus or discoloration. I am looking at those as well.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| digitalayon wrote: | | daanbeo wrote: | http://refractiveindex.info/?group=LIQUIDS&material=Ethyleneglycol
might work but lower then propylene and ethylene glycol glycerol |
At that difference, I do not think it is enough to notice. What if this makes the tubes last to 30,000 hours instead of just 20,000 because of cooling? No corrosive properties to items like bellows and no fungus or discoloration. I am looking at those as well. |
It was always my understanding that most of the color change involved in CRT wear was due to a chemical change in the binders used in the phosphor to make it stick to the face of the tube. Certainly heat has a role to play, but I don't ever recall hearing how much.
This is really interesting. The only problem I see is the difficulty in testing the hypothesis. One way I can think of right off hand to test whether there is any impact is a burn test.
Start with a throwaway tube (with spot burn, for instance), and run a projector with say a 1-inch-by-1-inch square on one side of the tube - with glycol in the cooling chamber. 150 hours at normal brightness/contrast settings should make a very visible burn. Then, drain the tube, switch to your super-swanky material, and re-install. Don't change a thing on the projector or source, but just flop the square to the other side of the tube center and run the test again. See if there's any detectable difference in color. A scientific process, a good digital camera with RAW, a careful and clean lighting setup, and you should get an image you can load into Photoshop to easily see if there is any detectable difference in the amount of browning between the two, assuming it's not visible with the naked eye of course.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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You need to confirm what is really happening. Is this fluid absorbing 55% more heat from the source OR is it insulating the source of the heat 55% more so the rest of the equipment runs cooler.
Also keep in mind that it won't do much good if the phosphor out lives the gun. In my setup, I have had to replace more tubes due to gun failure then phosphor burn
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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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the main reason is no mold and does not corrode the bellows or rubber cap screws.
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Tim in Phoenix
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4409
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Guys
Do not assume that every tube using glycol is a corrosion time bomb; I have tubes that have seen ten-eleven years of near daily use with no fogging issues. I have seen no cases of bellows that looked weakened or damaged.
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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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no one is saying they are all going to go bad....I just want to preserve good life in my current setup.
I mean....is it any different to others modding things like VIM boards for longer use and stability? Some say not necessary....some say very much needed even though nothing is currently wrong.
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Tim in Phoenix
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4409
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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Hello
Everyone likes improvements in performance and reliability. CRT face heat dissipation would be tricky to measure as the tube face is hard to access. Demonstrating that this fluid is superior for corrosion would take several years to demonstrate,and the cost is a deterrent for most of us.
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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim in Phoenix wrote: | Hello
Everyone likes improvements in performance and reliability. CRT face heat dissipation would be tricky to measure as the tube face is hard to access. Demonstrating that this fluid is superior for corrosion would take several years to demonstrate,and the cost is a deterrent for most of us. |
Cost yes.....expensive....but no demonstrating needed. We have chambers that the stuff has sat in for 12 plus years. And one of the reasons we use it is mold cannot ever grow in it.
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Tim in Phoenix
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4409
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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Mold?
No one has proven what the crap floating around in glycol really is. It might be mold, it might be corrosion from the aluminum or the silicone. If you have determined that it is mold for sure, we would like to hear about it.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim in Phoenix wrote: | Mold?
No one has proven what the crap floating around in glycol really is. It might be mold, it might be corrosion from the aluminum or the silicone. If you have determined that it is mold for sure, we would like to hear about it. |
I understood it to be a chemical reaction between the glycol and the aluminum LC chamber. To my knowledge mold doesn't cause pitting in aluminum.
As Nash said to me the other day, Marquees were never designed for consumer use. Simulators can eat up a set of tubes in 6-months so bellow and chamber longevity were likely not a major engineering concern. I've had issues with 4 of the 6 tubes I have used in my Marquee across the past 10 years due to glycol. Frustrating, but it is what it is...
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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | Tim in Phoenix wrote: | Mold?
No one has proven what the crap floating around in glycol really is. It might be mold, it might be corrosion from the aluminum or the silicone. If you have determined that it is mold for sure, we would like to hear about it. |
I understood it to be a chemical reaction between the glycol and the aluminum LC chamber. To my knowledge mold doesn't cause pitting in aluminum.
As Nash said to me the other day, Marquees were never designed for consumer use. Simulators can eat up a set of tubes in 6-months so bellow and chamber longevity were likely not a major engineering concern. I've had issues with 4 of the 6 tubes I have used in my Marquee across the past 10 years due to glycol. Frustrating, but it is what it is... |
That right there makes me want to change right now.
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