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sarahstaar
Joined: 31 Jul 2011
Posts: 24
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:53 pm Post subject: Projector upgrade Barco Cine 9 or JVC DLA HD990 ??? |
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I am going to be moving house in about 6 months time and i think this would be a good time to upgrade my Marquee 8500.
Is a CRT projector still the best??? I would like to upgrade to a Barco Cine 9 but would a modern projector like the JVC DLA HD990 be better than a Cine 9???
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HaydnG90
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1356
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Depends what you mean by better. Unless you are spending mega bucks, the black levels on a well setup CRT will beat the average consumer digital. I still think motion on a digital is still far from perfect. Sharpness and brightness is where the digital truly excels. I'm not convinced its worth investing in digital at this point in time.
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sarahstaar
Joined: 31 Jul 2011
Posts: 24
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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When i say better, Sharpness, blacks, 3D, resolution... And what about 2K and 4K that will be with us in a year or two... would a crt projector be able to do 2K or 4K?
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Unless you spend mega bucks on a digital (like the Sim2 5000) I agree with Haydn that you will not find comparable black level or motion resolution from consumer digital PJ's. Sharpness could be a push, a well set up 9" CRT will yield a very sharp picture but some digitals may appear sharper. If you want to do 4K (if and when the material is available) then blending 2 9" CRT's will accomplish this but not one PJ by itself. Though I wouldn't worry about that now, Blu-Ray hasn't really taken off yet so 4K material is probably a ways off.
Another thing to consider is how big of image are you looking to project?
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Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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HaydnG90
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1356
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: |
Another thing to consider is how big of image are you looking to project? |
Good point. An optimally setup 9" CRT will look best when projecting a ~110" diagonal 16:9 image. Much larger and you start to see the flaws and deficiencies of a single CRT unit.....
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mc86
Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 767
Location: pittsburgh, pa
TV/Projector: ECP 4500 (Vidikron box), ECP4500+, wanting 07MS/07MTS, evaluating pc soft-blend
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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While consideration of the future needs are obviously important to a decision, I for one am convinced 2K and 4K is a long way off for everyday, general public viewing as a standard kind of thing. As such, I have a hard time thinking that particular concern should impact your decision (or at least much).
Also, the Cine9 might be a problem from an ownership perspective moving forwards as parts surely will be a real bear to find (if not already)...maybe a G90 or 9500LC ultra, etc would be better choices IF you stuck with CRT. I dunno, the HD990 review very well, that's for sure and maybe either way you'd be happy for a long time.
About two years ago there was a thread on CRT/Digital that has folks discussing along the lines of what you might be thinking:
https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=19386.html
From this perspective - and I saw where you upgraded last year with Drags goodies -- why not plough ahead and save some money for the day the 8500 goes manic? Moving is an opportunity to change, yes - but not a mandate! 
"Just my two cents" (as we Yanks say...)
cheers,
Matt
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sarahstaar
Joined: 31 Jul 2011
Posts: 24
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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It is just i have my crt bolted to the ceiling and it is a very big deal to remove it.... so i have put off upgrading for years, that is why i did Drags mods last year.
My thought was if i upgrade to a 9" set i should get the best but i see your point about spare parts.
How different is a top end Marquee 9500 to a Barco Cine 9??
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stridsvognen
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | Unless you spend mega bucks on a digital (like the Sim2 5000) I agree with Haydn that you will not find comparable black level or motion resolution from consumer digital PJ's. Sharpness could be a push, a well set up 9" CRT will yield a very sharp picture but some digitals may appear sharper. If you want to do 4K (if and when the material is available) then blending 2 9" CRT's will accomplish this but not one PJ by itself. Though I wouldn't worry about that now, Blu-Ray hasn't really taken off yet so 4K material is probably a ways off.
Another thing to consider is how big of image are you looking to project? |
Not sure what you are thinking, but a Sim2 won't get anywhere near decent on/off cr. It is maybe 5k to 1.
The two big advantages of CRTs are on/off cr and motion resolution. If those are important to you, then you might want to stay with CRT. If you want sharp, then you can't beat digital. CRTs aren't even close to the MTF of digitals.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | jbmeyer13 wrote: | Unless you spend mega bucks on a digital (like the Sim2 5000) I agree with Haydn that you will not find comparable black level or motion resolution from consumer digital PJ's. Sharpness could be a push, a well set up 9" CRT will yield a very sharp picture but some digitals may appear sharper. If you want to do 4K (if and when the material is available) then blending 2 9" CRT's will accomplish this but not one PJ by itself. Though I wouldn't worry about that now, Blu-Ray hasn't really taken off yet so 4K material is probably a ways off.
Another thing to consider is how big of image are you looking to project? |
Not sure what you are thinking, but a Sim2 won't get anywhere near decent on/off cr. It is maybe 5k to 1.
The two big advantages of CRTs are on/off cr and motion resolution. If those are important to you, then you might want to stay with CRT. If you want sharp, then you can't beat digital. CRTs aren't even close to the MTF of digitals. |
I meant to say the Teatro 80 and I didn't say that it was better. To get black level and motion resolution that is closer to a CRT performance you need something like the Sim2 and it's big bucks.
Regarding sharpness; I want a sharp picture but not at the expense of seeing scan lines and/or pixel structure.
IMO, there is a fine line here and once passed the image no longer looks like film. A well set up 9" CRT is sharp enough to provide a film like image.
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Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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At this stage in the game, if you're even able to FIND a really good condition Cine 9, snap it up now! They're rare and not going to get any more common.
The limitation on CRT projectors will be video bandwidth. Full aperture 4K at 60 FPS will require over 900 MHz of video bandwidth, calculated by pixels per screen x 60 FPS plus 20 percent for the sync and timing signals that must be embedded in the signal.
There is absolutely no projector ever made that comes close to a 900 MHz video bandwidth. 300 MHz is currently considered to be the Holy Grail of video bandwidth capacity, and I don't know if there's a single projector out there that actually has a true flat 300 MHz video amplifier card.
And if you want 120 Hz, for 3D, that's going to double the bandwidth requirement.
CRT isn't going to make 4K. Not at any reasonable refresh rate. Sorry.
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Phoenixed
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 514
Location: The mitten
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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Currently the Sony vpl1000es can only do 4k24p.
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Planar PD-8150/Runco LS-5
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sorry, but 3-chip DLP has just about nothing in common with CRT projectors. DLP is much brighter, sharper, has significantly higher black levels, and significantly better ANSI contrast. Probably the only area that they're similar is motion resolution, but most measurements still put CRT above DLP in this respect. It begs the question how many people who purport this supposed commonality have actually sat down with a 3-chip DLP.
Although arguing which tech looks most like CRT is relatively pointless (if you like the CRT look, get a CRT; if you like LCoS, get LCoS; etc.), the "closest" tech in terms of "look" would probably be JVC's LCoS. It produces the best on/off CR of any digital but has lower ANSI CR just like CRT, and it's slightly "softer" than DLP. The only area where the two are significantly different is motion resolution - CRT blows LCoS away.
Each display tech has its own benefits and downfalls. It really depends on your priorities and what's important to you in terms of time investment (i.e. setup and maintenance) and PQ (i.e. which aspects of PQ you're more particular about).
In the interest of full disclosure, I've owned 4 different generations of JVC projectors, starting with the RS1 and including my RS55. That tech has come quite a long way in many aspects (the RS35/HD990 probably represented the largest "leap" in improvements thus far), and delivers (IMO) the best picture of any "digital" tech except for the super high-end DLP crowd. Even then, those have their shortcomings.
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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I could be happy with a new JVC DILA machine, but not for $5000. I heard they sometimes blow out older models at years end for less than $2K though. .......................nahhh, still too much money. 
Move the Marquee, it's not THAT hard. Roughly 140 pounds with the lenses off and I'm guessing not too many vaulted ceilings in the UK.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| cmjohnson wrote: | | There is absolutely no projector ever made that comes close to a 900 MHz video bandwidth. 300 MHz is currently considered to be the Holy Grail of video bandwidth capacity, and I don't know if there's a single projector out there that actually has a true flat 300 MHz video amplifier card.. |
Actually, none of the 9" CRT projectors were capable of that 300mhz flat bandwidth. And if the truth be told, not one of them was TRULY capable of 100mhz.
The only 9" CRT projector that was ever measured to exceed the 100mhz mark, and live up to its rated SPECS was the VDC Marquee 9500. And by the way, all of the Marquee series CRT projectors had the exact same bandwidth, because they had the exact same circuits, but with varying different bandwidth ratings, and we know that had more to do with SALES and MARKETING.
Scott (tse) modified the VIM on the 50-2035-02P board to get the VDC Marquee to live up to its rated specs and beyond.
The G90 and Barco 909 which both have very impressive bandwidth ratings with neither testing above 100mhz. The Barco 909 uses the same video chain (with the exception of the neck boards) as the Barco 808, 1208, 1209 S series. So just by using a different neck board in a video chain could not possible make that video chain rate up to 180mhz. Especially when the neck board itself failed the test. And to prove my point on this, the actual testing was done using both scoped video chain and one pixel test pattern, which it failed both. And to further support my point, I've yet to see anyone post a shot of the pixel pattern showing it resolve 1920X1080P /60hz fully, because I could not make it happen on any of them that I had here. Only Scott was able to post shots showing that pattern 100% resolved. And I'll not even mention my Marquee and its test results.
At the time these projectors were on the drawing board, there was not a need for higher actual bandwidth, nor were there the components to make it happen. For the most part, everyone (except Electrohome) chose to use the off the shelf Sanyo Video Out modules. And with their limitations, that made it clear of what the bandwidth limit would be. So the rated bandwidth was all beefed up. The Marquee used discrete Motorola RF output transistors, and that's what allowed me to take things further.
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| HogPilot wrote: | | I'm sorry, but 3-chip DLP has just about nothing in common with CRT projectors. DLP is much brighter, sharper, has significantly higher black levels, and significantly better ANSI contrast. |
Whoa.. and I say that because I deal with the very latest super commercial 3 chip DLP's. and the saying still in the industry (and I bare witness) is that it still has a way to go to catch up with CRT. It is better, but if you got to see what the super software developers has done in the past 4 years with 3D and what they call "layers" and black levels you would be shocked. because they have finally been able in the past two years to get complete black in their 3D source material. Meaning that they are able to bring exceptionally sharp and distinct levels of black and grays to the image. Which for the longest time has never been visible. But now we're seeing a tremendous step up from what was known of any of the digital technology. Can't speak on Lcos, because I have no commercial experience with it.
The industry is still looking up over the horizons for that day when something will do as well as CRT in low level performance. TI has done wonders with the super DLP engines, and without those expensive Zenon lamps, it would not be possible, because they help produce a very linear image to include maintain a more constant calibration over the life of the lamp. Something that's not happening with the non-Zenon lamps. At least, not on any of the commercial non-zenon lamps I've seen.
| Quote: | | Probably the only area that they're similar is motion resolution, but most measurements still put CRT above DLP in this respect. It begs the question how many people who purport this supposed commonality have actually sat down with a 3-chip DLP. |
Motion resolution will only be close to CRT with 4K, period. I do have a lot of first hand experience with 3 chip DLP. But if I were to go digital tomorrow, it would be Lcos.
| Quote: | Although arguing which tech looks most like CRT is relatively pointless (if you like the CRT look, get a CRT; if you like LCoS, get LCoS; etc.), the "closest" tech in terms of "look" would probably be JVC's LCoS. It produces the best on/off CR of any digital but has lower ANSI CR just like CRT, and it's slightly "softer" than DLP. The only area where the two are significantly different is motion resolution - CRT blows LCoS away.
Each display tech has its own benefits and downfalls. It really depends on your priorities and what's important to you in terms of time investment (i.e. setup and maintenance) and PQ (i.e. which aspects of PQ you're more particular about) |
I agree, it all depends on what you like, and for that, one should experience them for themselves.
| Quote: | | In the interest of full disclosure, I've owned 4 different generations of JVC projectors, starting with the RS1 and including my RS55. That tech has come quite a long way in many aspects (the RS35/HD990 probably represented the largest "leap" in improvements thus far), and delivers (IMO) the best picture of any "digital" tech except for the super high-end DLP crowd. Even then, those have their shortcomings. |
They all have their shortcomings as of today, but hopefully that will change in the future with something really exceeding CRT in all regards.
Last edited by mp20748 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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I have installed my last set of tubes. This in its self is a concearn. Tube availability. How much are you willing to spend on a projector and all the required analog support equipment that may need tubes soon???
If I were moving and had made the decision to leave everything behind, I would make the switch to digital.
Starting from scratch with a used projector and everything else needed to make it work would be a royal PIA.
No one here wants to see CRT die but we do have to be realistic about it.
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A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: | | I'm sorry, but 3-chip DLP has just about nothing in common with CRT projectors. DLP is much brighter, sharper, has significantly higher black levels, and significantly better ANSI contrast. |
Whoa.. and I say that because I deal with the very latest super commercial 3 chip DLP's. and the saying still in the industry (and I bare witness) is that it still has a way to go to catch up with CRT. It is better, but if you got to see what the super software developers has done in the past 4 years with 3D and what they call "layers" and black levels you would be shocked. because they have finally been able in the past two years to get complete black in their 3D source material. Meaning that they are able to bring exceptionally sharp and distinct levels of black and grays to the image. Which for the longest time has never been visible. But now we're seeing a tremendous step up from what was known of any of the digital technology. Can't speak on Lcos, because I have no commercial experience with it. |
I think you may have misinterpreted my statement - when I said DLP has higher black levels, I meant that they have significantly brighter blacks than CRT. DLP can't touch CRT's absolute blacks - the closest it's gotten in ANY DLP machine has been the Sim2 Lumis, and that was only the result of some very clever processing with the lamp and a dynamic iris. Most DCI DLPs (the ones used in commercial theaters and IMAX) can't achieve over 2K-3K:1 on/off CR - however their ANSI CR blows every other tech out of the water by a minimum factor of 2 (upwards of a factor of 6 as compared to CRT, depending upon the machine). Bottom line is if you want deep, inky fade-to-blacks, DLP is almost never the best tech, and I'm not sure why people compare CRT to 3DLP (or any DLP) in that respect.
| mp20748 wrote: | | The industry is still looking up over the horizons for that day when something will do as well as CRT in low level performance. |
Completely agreed.
| mp20748 wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: | | Probably the only area that they're similar is motion resolution, but most measurements still put CRT above DLP in this respect. It begs the question how many people who purport this supposed commonality have actually sat down with a 3-chip DLP. |
Motion resolution will only be close to CRT with 4K, period. I do have a lot of first hand experience with 3 chip DLP. But if I were to go digital tomorrow, it would be Lcos. |
I don't see that we disagree in this. However between LCoS, LCD, and DLP, DLP is by far the closest to CRT in terms of motion resolution (phony-looking frame interpolation processing aside), and it's one of the few areas where the two techs are remotely comparable. As I stated, most measurements still show CRT to be the all-time king of motion resolution.
| mp20748 wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: | Although arguing which tech looks most like CRT is relatively pointless (if you like the CRT look, get a CRT; if you like LCoS, get LCoS; etc.), the "closest" tech in terms of "look" would probably be JVC's LCoS. It produces the best on/off CR of any digital but has lower ANSI CR just like CRT, and it's slightly "softer" than DLP. The only area where the two are significantly different is motion resolution - CRT blows LCoS away.
Each display tech has its own benefits and downfalls. It really depends on your priorities and what's important to you in terms of time investment (i.e. setup and maintenance) and PQ (i.e. which aspects of PQ you're more particular about) |
I agree, it all depends on what you like, and for that, one should experience them for themselves. |
100% agree.
| mp20748 wrote: | | Quote: | | In the interest of full disclosure, I've owned 4 different generations of JVC projectors, starting with the RS1 and including my RS55. That tech has come quite a long way in many aspects (the RS35/HD990 probably represented the largest "leap" in improvements thus far), and delivers (IMO) the best picture of any "digital" tech except for the super high-end DLP crowd. Even then, those have their shortcomings. |
They all have their shortcomings as of today, but hopefully that will change in the future with something really exceeding CRT in all regards. |
Front projection in general has its shortcomings, regardless of which flavor you prefer. It's still THE choice method if you want a big screen, however. In terms of any display tech, I'm hoping that OLED has what it takes to displace everything in the direct view display market - plasma, LCD, and CRT. Maybe some day huge OLED sheets that roll out like paper will replace front projection as well. But that's something that will most likely come in decades, not just years.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: |
I think you may have misinterpreted my statement - when I said DLP has higher black levels, I meant that they have significantly brighter blacks than CRT. DLP can't touch CRT's absolute blacks - the closest it's gotten in ANY DLP machine has been the Sim2 Lumis, and that was only the result of some very clever processing with the lamp and a dynamic iris. Most DCI DLPs (the ones used in commercial theaters and IMAX) can't achieve over 2K-3K:1 on/off CR - however their ANSI CR blows every other tech out of the water by a minimum factor of 2 (upwards of a factor of 6 as compared to CRT, depending upon the machine). Bottom line is if you want deep, inky fade-to-blacks, DLP is almost never the best tech, and I'm not sure why people compare CRT to 3DLP (or any DLP) in that respect. |
Thanks for sharing this perspective. It's a good and informative explanation..and I fully agree. The newer commercial grade DLP projectors were designed for much better low end, black and ANSI performance. Something that used to only happen in the consumer units, but since the industry has moved from Graphics presentations to Cinema and 3D, they've made some serious changes in the light engine design. TI has really stepped up their thing boasting a really special "Black Chip" design coupled with a really complex light channel from the bulb to the engine. I really saw the results of this on a DPI projector, that even with its low CR, I was amazed of of how detailed black text was on the screen at the very high light output of the projector. Black text is now black text, instead of the usual gray looking black. They had to pull this off with these projectors to be able to use them in some of the more sophisticated simulators, that unlike in the past were being powered by very expensive SGI Lynux based computers that were super large and took up almost an entire room, to very smaller units called "Nodes" that's somewhat larger than a PC. The power behind this change was the NVIDIA cards and the software they later developed. When these card came out, it blew away the SGI and what we used to think was 3D. Everything was just so much better in the source department in sharpness, colors and details, so allowed them to step up things on the projector end, to now we're able to see super bright simulators with good black level. Not quite as good as CRT, but considering the brightness you can now get, they are without a doubt better for most applications.
So yes, but not only has consumer DLP come a longs ways, the commercial industry has really advanced in low end digital technology. And you'll get to see this on any of the DPI Titan 1080P digitals, that even with it's low CR, it is one amazing digital projector. I just think it could have used a better lamp.
Not familiar with the Sim 2, but based on my training on the TI lamp engines, I'm sure it's also sharing some of the same technology.
The only commercial applications I think CRT still has it's place, is the planetariums and some of the super special night flight simulators. There are a very few 3D setups that may be better with CRT, but that's slowly changing as well. And these challenges are mostly related to digital not being able to completely mute light.
I can own one CRT for over ten years and be pleased with it, but with digital technology, there seem to a better one coming out every month, that still has not completely gotten over the hill of shortcomings. So I'll most likely stay with CRT until that happens, and when it does I hope I'll be able to afford one of whatever they come out with that has clearly entered the race and has went all the way to the finish line without having to pass the baton to the next model..
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | The newer commercial grade DLP projectors were designed for much better low end, black and ANSI performance. Something that used to only happen in the consumer units, but since the industry has moved from Graphics presentations to Cinema and 3D, they've made some serious changes in the light engine design. TI has really stepped up their thing in their thing boasting a really special "Black Chip" design coupled with a really complex light channel from the bulb to the engine. I really saw the results of this on a DPI projector, that even with its low CR, I was amazed of of how detailed black text was on the screen at the very high light output of the projector. Black text is now black text, instead of the usual gray looking black. |
The black text during high light output is exactly where DLP shines with its ANSI performance. However, even with DLP's newest DC4 (Dark Chip 4), I have yet to see any projector (commercial low-or high end or DCI) that has on/off blacks like LCoS, or, more importantly, CRT. And that's the major distinction I was trying to draw in my original comment about 3DLP being compared as the only acceptable alternative to CRT.
| mp20748 wrote: | | Everything was just so much better in the source department in sharpness, colors and details, so allowed them to step up things on the projector end, to now we're able to see super bright simulators with good black level. Not quite as good as CRT, but considering the brightness you can now get, they are without a doubt better for most applications. |
And this is where 3DLP - both high end units and especially DCI units - truly shine (no pun intended). There's a guy who frequents AVS who owns two 3DLP 4K DCI units outputting ridiculous light levels for some pretty amazing passive 3D. Despite all of his positive comments about the unit, the one thing he readily admits is that they don't have great blacks.
The bottom line here is that CRT and 3DLP have very little in common in terms of PQ, so there's no reason they should be compared to one another by anyone who has seen both. It's a useless comparison on multiple levels.
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
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