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ChrisWiggles
Opinionated SOB
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 2529
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:55 pm Post subject: Vinyl *is* actually better than CD |
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I've been playing around with a Technics 1200, recently upgraded to an AT 440MLa cartridge.
And after a couple years overall (with a Shure m97xe), and a while now with the 440 I have reached the clear an inescapable conclusion, that on clean, un-worn, good pressings, vinyl offers significantly higher quality audio than CD, despite its numerous faults. It's rather stunning, actually. Surprising, too, and has taken me a while to fully accept, but after much listening, it is a quite clear conclusion for me.
My name is Chris, and I am a vinylphile.
That is all.
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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Yep. Vinyl rocks. Ive got the limited edition of that turntable in my theater, the M5G.
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ChrisWiggles
Opinionated SOB
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 2529
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Sweet! Mine is a fairly mundane 1200 MK5 I picked up used from a college kid a couple years ago who DJ'd with it before he switched completely to CDs & laptop. I was a little worried about condition, but it's fantastic.
My newest addition is a Pioneer 1020h reel-to-reel tape deck, which is getting cleaned and tuned up right now, but that'll be my next learning project.
But I basically have not bought a single CD in more than a year. I have, however, brought in several hundred records in that same time period, including a minty-fresh 100-LP Jazz retrospective put out by The Franklin Mint in the early 1980s, which is actually not cheesy at all, and surprisingly exceptional and extremely well-pressed. That set needs to go through my cleaning room first, then that will keep me musically/learning occupied for several years probably, it's SOO much great music.
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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Awesome. Yeah the 1200 series is one of the best if not the best turntable ever produced 
Nice score on the reel to reel. Check Curt's thread here for a cool link I posted about quad reel!
I definitely plan on increasing my lp collection for sure. I just recently gave away most of my DJ records to clear room for the new stuff I drag home.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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CxTurbo
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 425
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: |
I got the new Metallica "Ride the Lightning" and its awesome.
Nashou |
I have the entire remaster set in 180g 45rpm and it is stellar..............
I am now awaiting "The Collection" to release from Disturbed on record day. All the albums limited to 2500 sets in the first pressing. Think it is only 140g but will have to do.
If it is anything like the 10th anniversary of "The Sickness" then it will also be awesome.
I would like a new cartridge to go with my dual mono phono stage now though. Just got finished building it and it sounds great. it is a VSPS with x-reg and dual out board 100va torodial transformers. I have an Ortofon 2m Red and was looking into the 2m Black or the Sumiko Blackbird. Should be a big upgrade regardless.
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | That TT is too new for me  , give me an Old AR XA I can play with and all is good in the world. Wow Something Cliff and I agree on With Chris!!  Venial is Better!!!
I got the new Metallica "Ride the Lightning" and its awesome, as well as the Replacements "Please to meet me" And Some dexter gordon.
Nashou |
Where'd you get the "Ride the Lightning"?
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ChrisWiggles wrote: |
But I basically have not bought a single CD in more than a year. I have, however, brought in several hundred records in that same time period, including a minty-fresh 100-LP Jazz retrospective put out by The Franklin Mint in the early 1980s, which is actually not cheesy at all, and surprisingly exceptional and extremely well-pressed. That set needs to go through my cleaning room first, then that will keep me musically/learning occupied for several years probably, it's SOO much great music.
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Yeah, that's a
Heehee!
I agree, I haven't bought a CD in 3 years, mind you my only music source is MP3s right now (I know, stone me to death, right?), but Ireally only listen in the car anyways.
A visit to Tinman's place gave me new interest in reel to reels. Right now I have:
-Akai GX-630. Bought new in 1979 for $1100 with money earned fixing TVs, go figure. Sold it for $800 to a guy that never used it back in 1991 when I was flat broke, bought it back in 1993 for $250 when he was broke.
-3 assorted Technics 1500 series
-2 Crown 722 and 822 (I think those are the right model numbers)
-AKai GX4000
-eBay purchase last week of a Tandberg 10X. Looking for a 20 now. There's one on eBay that I might treat myself to if I sell a couple more CRTs..
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CxTurbo
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 425
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | | Where'd you get the "Ride the Lightning"? |
ElusivediscDOTcom had some not long ago. Not sure if it is the 2-disc 45rpm or regular. 45rpm 2-disc is out of print now I believe.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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Yep Turbo has it right. I wait till they have a free shipping special like 99$ or more free. You can save wish lists so you when your ready to buy you just move them to a cart. Every LP I got from there has been awesome. I missed out on the Metallica boxed set, complete!! it was like 245$ I think. All 45 RPM 180grm. I must say Fade to Black never sounded better. The replacements "Please to Meet me" is one of my most listened to Cd's i owned. I know every nuance of that disc and with the LP I am hearing things I never heard on the CD. Just Amazing.
Nashou
_________________
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | The replacements "Please to Meet me" is one of my most listened to Cd's i owned. I know every nuance of that disc and with the LP I am hearing things I never heard on the CD. Just Amazing. |
Do you know for a fact that both were taken from identical mixes?
SC
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ChrisWiggles
Opinionated SOB
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 2529
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | | The replacements "Please to Meet me" is one of my most listened to Cd's i owned. I know every nuance of that disc and with the LP I am hearing things I never heard on the CD. Just Amazing. |
Do you know for a fact that both were taken from identical mixes?
SC |
It is never (basically) an identical master when cut to vinyl. You have to work within the limitations of the medium, and vinyl is more problematic.
It is difficult to compare perfectly apples to apples.
What is very interesting, though, is listening to 44.1/16 source material that has been pressed to vinyl, compared to CD, compared to an original high-res or analog tape sourced vinyl. It is this comparison which is so dispositive, and vinyl simply trounces the CD source by quite a wide margin, audibly.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | | The replacements "Please to Meet me" is one of my most listened to Cd's i owned. I know every nuance of that disc and with the LP I am hearing things I never heard on the CD. Just Amazing. |
Do you know for a fact that both were taken from identical mixes?
SC |
Thats the thing with the Rihno Pressings. Its a hit and Miss. This one was a HIT!
I found anything from Blue Note and Analog Productions is Very good as long as the new MOFI releases.
If i do not have an original on Vinyl then I'll buy it. If I have an original I will look for reviews of the re release to see
what others say.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
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Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
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El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| ChrisWiggles wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | | The replacements "Please to Meet me" is one of my most listened to Cd's i owned. I know every nuance of that disc and with the LP I am hearing things I never heard on the CD. Just Amazing. |
Do you know for a fact that both were taken from identical mixes?
SC |
It is never (basically) an identical master when cut to vinyl. You have to work within the limitations of the medium, and vinyl is more problematic.
It is difficult to compare perfectly apples to apples.
What is very interesting, though, is listening to 44.1/16 source material that has been pressed to vinyl, compared to CD, compared to an original high-res or analog tape sourced vinyl. It is this comparison which is so dispositive, and vinyl simply trounces the CD source by quite a wide margin, audibly. |
I'll bet that what you like is old-school mastering that doesn't have everything compressed to 10db of peak. 44.1/16 has MUCH better specs in freq response (to Nyquist) S/N, wow/flutter/rumble, THD, IMD...
Do your test in reverse- digitize some vinyl tracks and a 1khz test-tone from your TT and in 44.1/16 and then ABX that to your LP. If you're like most folk, you'll find that you can't tell them apart once you use the 1kHz to level match within <1db.
If you're comparing mastering from the age of the loudness wars to mastering before that, then I can see how you prefer vinyl. You also may like the subsonic rumble or added harmonic distortion, but that's not accuracy. Have you seen an analog RIAA curve matching accuracy? They're doing good if they can hold to 3db. 
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| ChrisWiggles wrote: | It is never (basically) an identical master when cut to vinyl. You have to work within the limitations of the medium, and vinyl is more problematic.
It is difficult to compare perfectly apples to apples. |
That was precisely what I was getting at. The idea that vinyl on a turntable is somehow able to reveal or reproduce something that was "hidden" or "irreproducable" on the CD is a bit specious.
Duderino covered very nicely what I would have likely spent much more time writing. Thanks, Duderino!
SC
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ChrisWiggles
Opinionated SOB
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 2529
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| El Duderino wrote: | | ChrisWiggles wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | | The replacements "Please to Meet me" is one of my most listened to Cd's i owned. I know every nuance of that disc and with the LP I am hearing things I never heard on the CD. Just Amazing. |
Do you know for a fact that both were taken from identical mixes?
SC |
It is never (basically) an identical master when cut to vinyl. You have to work within the limitations of the medium, and vinyl is more problematic.
It is difficult to compare perfectly apples to apples.
What is very interesting, though, is listening to 44.1/16 source material that has been pressed to vinyl, compared to CD, compared to an original high-res or analog tape sourced vinyl. It is this comparison which is so dispositive, and vinyl simply trounces the CD source by quite a wide margin, audibly. |
I'll bet that what you like is old-school mastering that doesn't have everything compressed to 10db of peak. 44.1/16 has MUCH better specs in freq response (to Nyquist) S/N, wow/flutter/rumble, THD, IMD...
Do your test in reverse- digitize some vinyl tracks and a 1khz test-tone from your TT and in 44.1/16 and then ABX that to your LP. If you're like most folk, you'll find that you can't tell them apart once you use the 1kHz to level match within <1db.
If you're comparing mastering from the age of the loudness wars to mastering before that, then I can see how you prefer vinyl. You also may like the subsonic rumble or added harmonic distortion, but that's not accuracy. Have you seen an analog RIAA curve matching accuracy? They're doing good if they can hold to 3db. |
This was my thinking before I really spent some serious time with vinyl in my system.
In fact I spent the better part of a year chalking up my preference for vinyl on a number of my favorite albums to being subjective preference for the distortions other imperfections of vinyl.
But, particularly after upgrading my cartridge and tweaking the input loading of it, and stumbling accidentally onto some new pressings sourced from 44.1/16 and being dramatically disappointed compared to original vinyl or the same in terms of detail, I spent the better part of a weekend seriously comparing the two.
And it's not close.
It turns out, apparently, that the quantization noise of 44.1/16 and brickwall at 22.05khz is actually audibly inferior to vinyl, and not just in theoretical ideal. I mean, I spend some time with some of my all-time favorite albums (Take Five, Aquemini), and with multiple versions on vinyl, and it's really clear actually what is 44.1/16 (even on vinyl) and what isn't.
It is without question that CD is superior (in some cases vastly) in many ways, but it turns out through my listening, that at least in terms of detail preserved, it's not close: vinyl is better. And not in subtle or debatable ways.
After picking up both some new 45rpm masters, and some older Philips Japan 45rpm discs from the late 1970s, it's not even remotely close: that 45rpm stuff simply destroys CD. 33 is a little comparable, but still not close if done right and you're not on the last track of a side.
It's odd for me to say this, because I presumed vinyl was most certainly inferior as a format to CD in practice. I didn't get into vinyl because I thought it would sound great, but because I wanted to learn about old music (particularly classical) on the seriously cheap. But it turns out that the one thing in theory that vinyl can do better: frequency response and absence of quantization noise, actually is audibly superior. This is very surprising to me.
But as far as the level matching arguments, it's really bull****. I mean, it's not even a close call. You can't ever do a blind test with vinyl because there's so much more going on, you can always tell it's vinyl. But in my system, it really is no contest. Now, it's *certainly* possible to make vinyl sound worse (a lot worse) than CD, but done right, my rather modest ~$600 turntable setup simply trounces my $2.5K CD player.
Despite the numerous challenges to vinyl, I am willing to say openly that vinyl done right is a significantly higher fidelity delivery format to CD.
I never thought I would say that in a million years, but I can't deny it. It's just friggen better, and in a big way. And not in a subjectivist nonsense way. The detail is simply not there with CD.
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El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:31 am Post subject: |
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You say you really can't do apples/apples, and talk about having access to vinyl cut from a CD master for comparison. And the vinyl copy from the CD master is more revealing? Like you have a vinyl cutter in your basement.
You can do an apples/apples A/B by digitizing the analog signal from your TT, stylus, cartridge, tone arm, RIAA eq, and preamp into a 44.1/16b .wav file and feed a good 16bit DAC with that .wav file. ABX both line level analog signals after RMS level matching with 1kHz sine wave. You'll digitize all the wow, flutter, surface noise, distortion, and clicks and pops you love from your LPs so the .wav file will also have that.
Perhaps even better than human ABX comparison is to simply invert signal A relative to signal B and then sum them. Create a difference signal. If they are the same, they sum to null. Comparing an LP source to an inverted digitized 16b PCM copy creates mostly a null signal (>70db) and any differences are mainly do to the random surface noise of an LP and the inability of a TT to maintain a constant speed. (wow/flutter that digital doesn't have in comparison)
While I doubt you have the capability to lathe vinyl from a CD master, I don't doubt that you have a sound card that can probably do 16bit 44.1 with >90db S/N, FR to <0.5db 20-20k, and <0.00XXX% THD. A $50 sound card.
Such level-matched, apples/apples, human perception ABX tests have shown that the claim that LPs/TT are more revealing or more nuanced than 44.1/16 redbook PCM digital files is an audiophile myth along the lines of cryo'd power cords, tice clocks, and shiki stones. You'll rock the audiophile world if you can demonstrate your ability to reliably differentiate between them in a level-matched ABX test. You'll finally be able to prove that redbook digital audio technology is inherently flawed for audiophile use. You'll be legend by finally proving a 30yr old audiophile myth as truth.
And no, level matching is not bull****, it's required for an honest ABX comparison test. It's well understood that humans think louder sounds better, even when all other things are equal.
FWIW, I did such AB testing when I digitized a few OOP LPs and booted my expensive TT, arm, and cartridge to the curb. 20 yrs ago. When I could hear. There was a romance with the primping and preening involved, and something more satisfying about dropping a stylus in a groove, but that's only romantic nostalgia. RtR and cassette tapes from LPs are hip now too. The beatnik vegan existentialists here ride a fixie to the used record store and shop the cassette tape isle. Homer Simon was right. It's a scientific fact that rock music attained perfection in 1974. As did our ability and desire to capture, distribute, and reproduce it. Evil sterile lifeless digital. Dooh!
Don't ABX with vinyl too many times though. Your LP has maybe 50 good plays and your stylus maybe a 1000 hrs before they both start wearing out and eating each-other. 
Last edited by El Duderino on Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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ChrisWiggles
Opinionated SOB
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 2529
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| El Duderino wrote: | | You say you really can't do apples/apples, and talk about having access to vinyl cut from a CD master for comparison. And the vinyl copy from the CD master is more revealing? Like you have a vinyl cutter in your basement. |
No, I purchsed some new releases which are sourced from 44.1/16, whereas original pressings are sourced from tape.
| Quote: |
You can do an apples/apples A/B by digitizing the analog signal from your TT, stylus, cartridge, tone arm, RIAA eq, and preamp into a 44.1/16b .wav file and feed a good 16bit DAC with that .wav file. ABX both line level analog signals after RMS level matching with 1kHz sine wave. You'll digitize all the wow, flutter, surface noise, distortion, and clicks and pops you love from your LPs so the .wav file will also have that. |
Not at 44.1/16. You need more resolution.
| Quote: |
While I doubt you have the capability to lathe vinyl from a CD master, I don't doubt that you have a sound card that can probably do 16bit 44.1 with >90db S/N, FR to <0.5db 20-20k, and <0.00XXX% THD. A $50 sound card. |
But it can't hit the high frequencies like vinyl can.
| Quote: |
Such level-matched, apples/apples, human perception ABX tests have shown that the claim that LPs/TT are more revealing or more nuanced than 44.1/16 redbook PCM digital files is an audiophile myth along the lines of cryo'd power cords, tice clocks, and shiki stones. You'll rock the audiophile world if you can demonstrate your ability to reliably differentiate between them in a level-matched ABX test. You'll finally be able to prove that redbook digital audio technology is inherently flawed for audiophile use. You'll be legend by finally proving a 30yr old audiophile myth as truth.
And no, level matching is not bull****, it's required for an honest ABX comparison test. It's well understood that humans think louder sounds better, even when all other things are equal.
FWIW, I did such AB testing when I digitized a few OOP LPs and booted my expensive TT, arm, and cartridge to the curb. 20 yrs ago. When I could hear. There was a romance with the primping and preening involved, and something more satisfying about dropping a stylus in a groove, but that's only romantic nostalgia. RtR and cassette tapes from LPs are hip now too. The beatnik vegan existentialists here ride a fixie to the used record store and shop the cassette tape isle. Homer Simon was right. It's a scientific fact that rock music attained perfection in 1974. As did our ability and desire to capture, distribute, and reproduce it. Evil sterile lifeless digital. Dooh!
Don't ABX with vinyl too many times though. Your LP has maybe 50 good plays and your stylus maybe a 1000 hrs before they both start wearing out and eating each-other. |
You don't know what you're talking about.
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El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| ChrisWiggles wrote: | | No, I purchsed some new releases which are sourced from 44.1/16, whereas original pressings are sourced from tape. |
So how do you know both the 44.1/16 source and the tape source had same mastering and Eq'ing? How do you know there wasn't a remix along the way? Do both have similar dynamic-range on a envelope plot? Big clue there.
| ChrisWiggles wrote: | | Not at 44.1/16. You need more resolution. |
16b linear PCM is good for 96db S/N. Noise shaping and dither improves on that. 44.1k sampling is good for 22kHz. If you want more there always the hi-rez 96k/192k/24b hype. I think 96db and 22k is more than enough and far exceeds all analog medium and human perceptions.
| ChrisWiggles wrote: | | But it can't hit the high frequencies like vinyl can. |
If you're taking ultrasonics above 22kHz, I'd cite Fletcher-Munsion and the threshold of human perceptions. Hi-rez digital can also capture ultrasonics, but testing of ultrasonic content in both LP and hi-rez digital has show this to be largely noise and artifacts.
Then there's the question of your transducers and the rest of your chain to reproduce those 25-50kHz ultrasonics. Even if you have super-human hearing and perceptions.
| ChrisWiggles wrote: | | You don't know what you're talking about. |
Lame retort. I'm betting you've never done something as straight-forward as digitizing one of your precious LPs to a .wav file and A/Bing it before talking out of your ass.
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WTS
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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I guess none of you guys have heard a real digital setup then if you still think vinyl sounds better,lol. Yes it sounds nice but it's not as accurate/clean/fast etc etc by any stretch. The digital sound you hear from your typical CD player does not make for a good digital playback system. I've been at the top of the vinyl hill in the past with all the direct to vinyl cuts etc with top of the line equipement and it was nice at the "time", but each to their own. Flame suit is on.
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