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Gerbrand
Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 199
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:05 am Post subject: How many ftL from a P19LUG? |
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Hello,
Recently I retubed my 1209s with LUGs from Terry. Yesterday I bought a color analyzer (X-rite DTP-94) to calibrate the grayscale.
This confirmed my expectations: the tubes seem are less bright than I expected. On a 2m40 wide screen (100") I only get around 6 ftL (screen gain is 1). I would expect to at least be getting 10 ftL...
Am I expecting too much or could there be an issue?
I also noticed that there is hardly any difference between full screen and a 1/4 window. I always thought that CRTs were supposed to reduce the intensity for a full screen to protect the tubes from overheating.
Gerbrand
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6635
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:11 am Post subject: |
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Can you check the tube emissions with a CRT tester ?
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Gerbrand
Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 199
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| Tom.W wrote: | | Can you check the tube emissions with a CRT tester ? |
I would need to find one. However, I would not expect three tubes to have the same issue. Furthermore the red is of a slightly different type (LPB iso LUG).
Gerbrand
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6635
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Find one to be sure...I like the Sencore CR 7000. Tubes with low emissions and clean phosphor can be deceiving.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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Gerbrand
Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 199
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | Since LUG's are Sharper than LCPs they will be less bright due to less electron "scatter" to surrounding phosphor. That is the price of sharper Tubes.
Athanasios |
I did not expect it to make that much of a difference, though.
Gerbrand
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: How many ftL from a P19LUG? |
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| Gerbrand wrote: | Hello,
Recently I retubed my 1209s with LUGs from Terry. Yesterday I bought a color analyzer (X-rite DTP-94) to calibrate the grayscale.
This confirmed my expectations: the tubes seem are less bright than I expected. On a 2m40 wide screen (100") I only get around 6 ftL (screen gain is 1). I would expect to at least be getting 10 ftL...
Am I expecting too much or could there be an issue?
I also noticed that there is hardly any difference between full screen and a 1/4 window. I always thought that CRTs were supposed to reduce the intensity for a full screen to protect the tubes from overheating.
Gerbrand |
This meter will not give you an accurate number for flt or tube brightness. Just disregard what the meter says for flt and set the tubes how you want them. If you move the meter different distances from the screen it will give different flt numbers. It also may give different readings if you rotate it 180 degrees or anywhere in between. The meter cannot give good flt readings so don't worry about it.
I would not bother to test the emissions from the tubes. They are fine. Set them where you want the picture to be and be happy.
If you don't want the benefit of the tighter focus with an LUG just slightly defocus the green (slightly). This will void the focus improvement and allow the light output to be higher and exactly like other tubes. These use the same phosphors so if you make the spot larger with defocus it will perform with greater light output and will wear slower.
Regards,
craigr
_________________
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zGman
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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LPB03 is also a high res tube - same as LUG without grid3 on pin7.
PJ's with high res tubes ie 909 and G90 have same spec light output
as others. Would not expect less except at lower resolutions...
P43 greens definitely have less output at 60 Hz, but output goes up
with refresh rate - ie better at 72Hz etc....
G
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Ok since we're talking about tube output, I am about to put in my set of pt-22's. I understand they are kind of like LUG, sharper and fast phosphor.
Will there be less light out put with the pt-22 @60hz or more to the point should I be keeping my Lumagen to do 72hz for a brighter picture?
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Gerbrand
Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 199
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| zGman wrote: |
P43 greens definitely have less output at 60 Hz, but output goes up
with refresh rate - ie better at 72Hz etc....
G |
Since my tubes are P19LUG43's that means I have "43" fosfor, right? Also I am not even running at 60 Hz but at 48 Hz, so this would most certainly matter.
Also I suppose I could defocus the green a little bit. At the moment I am seeing scan-lines.
Gerbrand
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| zGman wrote: | LPB03 is also a high res tube - same as LUG without grid3 on pin7.
PJ's with high res tubes ie 909 and G90 have same spec light output
as others. Would not expect less except at lower resolutions...
P43 greens definitely have less output at 60 Hz, but output goes up
with refresh rate - ie better at 72Hz etc....
G |
My thoughts exactly 
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
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Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| dturco wrote: | Ok since we're talking about tube output, I am about to put in my set of pt-22's. I understand they are kind of like LUG, sharper and fast phosphor.
Will there be less light out put with the pt-22 @60hz or more to the point should I be keeping my Lumagen to do 72hz for a brighter picture? |
Why on earth would you get rid of your Lumagen? What will you use instead?
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Gerbrand wrote: | | zGman wrote: |
P43 greens definitely have less output at 60 Hz, but output goes up
with refresh rate - ie better at 72Hz etc....
G |
Since my tubes are P19LUG43's that means I have "43" fosfor, right? Also I am not even running at 60 Hz but at 48 Hz, so this would most certainly matter.
|
IMHO The verdict is still out on whether or not the P19LUG43 is a P43 phosphor or not. Terry has always said that the P19LUG43 is NOT a P43 phosphor tube. However, there are P19LPB03 green tubes that supposedly are the same as the LUG tubes, but without the scatter grid. I am not sure this is accurate as I am wondering if they also may have different phosphor for the green (03 standard phosphor instead of 43).
I actually am about to answer this question once and for all. I have two new sets of Panasonic P19LUG43 tubes here. I just mounted one yesterday and plan to install it into my 3D G90 this week (if I have time) I want to see if there is a difference in 3D performance and in color measurement. I will get back with results on this.
A P43 green phosphor will look like ass at 48Hz as there will be a lot of flicker due to the rapid decay rate of the phosphor. I think 60Hz is the minimum that you should run a P43 tube and even that is low. With custom reduced timings I think it would be ok, but 72Hz and above will certainly be better.
| Gerbrand wrote: |
Also I suppose I could defocus the green a little bit. At the moment I am seeing scan-lines.
Gerbrand |
The other thing you can do is adjust the stig such that the beam spot is an ellipse top to bottom, and then defocus green a little from the tightest spot. This will excite more phosphor and also fill in the scan lines
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | | dturco wrote: | Ok since we're talking about tube output, I am about to put in my set of pt-22's. I understand they are kind of like LUG, sharper and fast phosphor.
Will there be less light out put with the pt-22 @60hz or more to the point should I be keeping my Lumagen to do 72hz for a brighter picture? |
Why on earth would you get rid of your Lumagen? What will you use instead?
craigr |
Nothing, Bluray direct to Moome. I know I'm not using it right. I tried to use it with my Integra DVD player on one input on the Moome for upscaling, and used the other input to run bluray direct from the Sony.
It kept screwing up the settings when switched between inputs so I stopped using it.
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http://www.hulu.com/firefly
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Gerbrand wrote: | | I also noticed that there is hardly any difference between full screen and a 1/4 window. I always thought that CRTs were supposed to reduce the intensity for a full screen to protect the tubes from overheating. |
Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but it was always my understanding that this had to do with the video amplifier not being able to supply enough current to light up the entire tube face at the same brightness as a smaller window.
If the 1/4 window is no brighter than the full screen, it seems like it could be just as likely the projector causing the problem as the tube. Unless, of course you'd measured it before and this wasn't occurring with the old tube.
SC
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zGman
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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I have P43 phosphor 9" tubes here from 909 3d applications,
they are labeled < PT22-30 > The output is distinctly
yellow-green, and the output at 60Hz is less than a LUG,
but quite usable, especially in a driving sim application....
Normal green LUG tubes are not P43 phosphor, despite
the coincidence in the part # - otherwise you would
never get the correct primary color .... never ever, not
even with a filtered c-element.
LPB03 is a Barco pinout High Res 9" tube - very nice to have!
Another thing that can be used to identify tube types -
High Res tubes will have white/white glass for the
gun assemblies, for both 8" and 9" versions.
(These tubes have Barco pinouts.)
LUG tubes will have white/pink-brn,
LQF tubes (G90 stock) also white/pink-brn.
(These tubes have grid 3 on pin 7 and Barco pinouts.)
Marquee standard res - white/blue
Barco standard res - white/yellow
Last edited by zGman on Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 3778
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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Can we get a "All about Tubes" sticky. This is really good information that many could use and there doesn't seem to be a lot of information about tubes generally available.
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Gerbrand
Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 199
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: |
A P43 green phosphor will look like ass at 48Hz as there will be a lot of flicker due to the rapid decay rate of the phosphor. |
Well, since my green phosphor does not look like ass at 48 Hz, I think I can settle the dispute allready: P19LUG43s do not have P43 phosfor...
Which leaves the issue of the low light output. I still think that the observation of the small difference between full screen and windowed is an interesting one...
Gerbrand
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zGman
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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Try it at 60Hz - see how much change you observe and can measure...
Also, what are your Gain settings? Contrast?
G
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