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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 7:38 pm Post subject: Onkyo 807 vs Yamaha 2065 |
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I can get them both for around the same price.
I am looking to consolidate my rack a bit and probably getting rid of a few of my Behringer amps...so I was looking for a receiver with some decent wattage. I think 130W should be plenty.
Any thoughts on them?
Going to replace my aging Harman/Kardon 325 that I bought for $425 in 2003.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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I did a quick check on my repair sites and nothing significant comes up on either model. I then pulled a copy of both service manuals to look at the amp section. Both are very similar with the Onkyo being slightly better. Your welcome to copies of the manuals if you like. So I guess its pretty much down to the bells and whistles of your liking. I'll do a little more digging later.
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | I did a quick check on my repair sites and nothing significant comes up on either model. I then pulled a copy of both service manuals to look at the amp section. Both are very similar with the Onkyo being slightly better. Your welcome to copies of the manuals if you like. So I guess its pretty much down to the bells and whistles of your liking. I'll do a little more digging later. |
I have an Onkyo 507 and the bells and whistles are nice...but it runs hot just as people complain about.
I don't really have my HT rack situation figured out now that mixed up my theater but I would prefer to not to have to add additional fans.
I can get the Onkyo 1007 for $850 from 6ave.com but I don't know if I need 9.2 sound or 2 simultaneous HDMI outs...but they would both be nice and I don't see myself upgrading from that anytime soon.
My 507 was from accessories4less.com and it went through one replacement within the first week and this one has been going strong for about a year (but runs damn hot!).
I have never owned anything Yamaha but they seem to have a pretty good 'cult' following.
Thanks for checking Mac!
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dvh99
Joined: 25 Dec 2009
Posts: 2158
Location: nederland
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:18 am Post subject: |
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i have an onkyo ds575 and it is that i needed an amp with a optical input for my ps3 and that i could get it cheap but it is definitely not a good sounding amp.
the highs are way too harsh and and the amp simply doesnt deliver enough current and i only have 2 speakers connected to it.
i would go for a surround processor like lexicon and separate amps for a surround setup.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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Greg,
Unless your new speakers you built are really efficient, you're not going to be happy eliminating the Behringers. No AVR in the price range you're looking is going to be even vaguely comparable to the Behringers, as their ratings are all 2-channels driven. As soon as you go all-channels drive, the power rating drops precipitously. I haven't seen tests of either of the receivers you're looking at, but it's not uncommon to have an AVR that's rated 115w two channels driven, drop to 40w when all channels are driven.
See if you can find a comprehensive review of one of those AVR's predecessors... You might be surprised at how little power the AVR's actually have when you're driving all channels (like we all do with surround material).
SC
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | but it's not uncommon to have an AVR that's rated 115w two channels driven, drop to 40w when all channels are driven.
SC |
Ok SC. This is with a big smiley...  but where are you getting that info from?
Oh, but I agree with using separate amps though...
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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I agree, keep the separate amps. Can't you relocate them somewhere else? I have never used the amps in my Denon 3803, I use separate Inter M quad channel amps, and that's worked fine for 8 years. the Denon runs ice cold.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | I agree, keep the separate amps. Can't you relocate them somewhere else? I have never used the amps in my Denon 3803, I use separate Inter M quad channel amps, and that's worked fine for 8 years. the Denon runs ice cold. |
Yeah, I also always hunt for AVRs with preamp outs too. Like that Pioneer I just got from......YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.....LOL  Oh, by the way....it is sounding Sweeeeeeeeeeeet!
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | Ok SC. This is with a big smiley... but where are you getting that info from? |
I researched it quite extensively before I went to a prepro and separate amps. I don't remember what the site was - might have been european - but, they did really extensive bench testing way beyond the typical reviews, and in almost every case - even AVRs in the $1000 ballpark - the power was really lacking when all channels were driven. Don't quote me on this part, but IIRC, it was because the entire amp section shared the same power supply, and that power supply just couldn't deliver more than 250-300w, whether it was driving two channels or six.
They had a whole table of AVR's they'd tested. I'll see if I can find the site and post.
SC
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ecrabb
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Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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OK, I can't find the table I was looking at a few years ago, but here's an example:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/marantz-sr6004-1/sr6004-measurements
Marantz SR-6004... $1250 AVR... They typically have pretty good amps from what I've read. Marantz claims 110wpc.
So, obviously there are different ways to test amps, and Audioholics uses several. But, using the popular 1kHz power sweep, they measured 112w into 8 ohms with two channels driven, and 66 watts into 8 ohms with seven channels driven.
Using the CEA-2006 burst "dynamic power" method, it's 266w and 100w into 7 channels and 1 channel, respectively.
Like I said, the Marantz is probably at the higher-end, while I'd imagine a Yamaha in the sub-$750 category would be even worse.
Obviously, testing with all channels driven doesn't exactly reflect a real-world listening circumstance, but it does indicate what's going to happen the power supply and amplifier output during the big action sequences - the exact circumstances where we really want our system to perform.
Oh, and before anybody says it... Yes, power output is only one amplifier measurement.
SC
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | OK, I can't find the table I was looking at a few years ago, but here's an example:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/marantz-sr6004-1/sr6004-measurements
Marantz SR-6004... $1250 AVR... They typically have pretty good amps from what I've read. Marantz claims 110wpc.
So, obviously there are different ways to test amps, and Audioholics uses several. But, using the popular 1kHz power sweep, they measured 112w into 8 ohms with two channels driven, and 66 watts into 8 ohms with seven channels driven.
Using the CEA-2006 burst "dynamic power" method, it's 266w and 100w into 7 channels and 1 channel, respectively.
Like I said, the Marantz is probably at the higher-end, while I'd imagine a Yamaha in the sub-$750 category would be even worse.
Obviously, testing with all channels driven doesn't exactly reflect a real-world listening circumstance, but it does indicate what's going to happen the power supply and amplifier output during the big action sequences - the exact circumstances where we really want our system to perform.
Oh, and before anybody says it... Yes, power output is only one amplifier measurement.
SC |
Well I have been powering my new LCR's from my lowly H/K 325 (55W x 7) and they will get louder than I care to hear but the voume dial is about at its end.
I realize that I will have more power and headroom and all that with separate amps, but I need to cash out a few of those to be able to afford a new AVR. 
Plus it would be nice to consolidate a bit and then build back up...my rack is a bit of a mess right now.
I think the Onkyo 1007 would be quite nice...something like 180W x 7...only $848.
I am thinking that if my H/K can get it louder than I need, something over three times the rated power (even if it derates at all channels driven - when does that ever happen?) would do just as good with a bit more headroom.
Oh yeah... the new speakers are pretty efficient. 
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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Ok SC. I read over those documents and I'm going to respond. But not for the sake of an argument. I'd much rather discuss this, especially since I just had my beek stuck in a couple AVR's recently where I had to do a full 7 channel amp disassembly and repair.
I will also clarify first that lower budget receivers and their amp ratings ARE a bunch of crap and because of poor PS AND poor amplification struggle just to TRY to drive more then 2 channels.
The ONLY AVRs of any substance will use discrete amplification for each channel.
Now for the test by audioholics.
1st: I'm not going to dispute what they are showing as results......BUT
a: In this test they are driving all 7 channels at full load and down to 20hz. This would never be a real world situation. I cant think of any type of sound you would listen to that would (a) drive all channels down to 20hz and (b) drive all channels to full load capacity.
Therefore, the results of this test is irrelevant in real world application. But it does show what the amp is really capable of, which at those testing parameters is very impressive. And I will also add that most better quality AVRs use the same type amplification with staggering similarities.
I also believe they stated that the power supply itself was more then enough to handle their tests.
Of course dont get me wrong, I dont always believe factory ratings either. But when I look at a power amp section (literally) and the power supply (literally) and consider real world use, I dont see a difference in output whether its 2 channels driven or 7 channels driven.
Now if your trying to drive (7) 15" subs down to 20hz and using a 7 channel feature and playing deep bass music, well you may then get some variations....
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | Ok SC. I read over those documents and I'm going to respond. But not for the sake of an argument. I'd much rather discuss this, especially since I just had my beek stuck in a couple AVR's recently where I had to do a full 7 channel amp disassembly and repair.
I will also clarify first that lower budget receivers and their amp ratings ARE a bunch of crap and because of poor PS AND poor amplification struggle just to TRY to drive more then 2 channels.
The ONLY AVRs of any substance will use discrete amplification for each channel.
Now for the test by audioholics.
1st: I'm not going to dispute what they are showing as results......BUT
a: In this test they are driving all 7 channels at full load and down to 20hz. This would never be a real world situation. I cant think of any type of sound you would listen to that would (a) drive all channels down to 20hz and (b) drive all channels to full load capacity.
Therefore, the results of this test is irrelevant in real world application. But it does show what the amp is really capable of, which at those testing parameters is very impressive. And I will also add that most better quality AVRs use the same type amplification with staggering similarities.
I also believe they stated that the power supply itself was more then enough to handle their tests.
Of course dont get me wrong, I dont always believe factory ratings either. But when I look at a power amp section (literally) and the power supply (literally) and consider real world use, I dont see a difference in output whether its 2 channels driven or 7 channels driven.
Now if your trying to drive (7) 15" subs down to 20hz and using a 7 channel feature and playing deep bass music, well you may then get some variations.... |
What are you thoughts on "headroom" Mac?
I do have 3 x 12" woofers in my front three LCR but they are crossed over at approx. 80 Hz with powered sub handling the lower freq's.
I felt like originally when I switched from the H/K to the Behringer amps my speakers "opened up" quite a bit. Whatever that means...but they sounded different.
I think the main difference was that now that I had enough power, I was able to EQ my room or better put...accurately set the levels on all of the my speakers at my listening volume...before I think my center channel was out of oomph at my listening volume...does that even make any sense?
Probably not using the right terminology but...don't jump on me. 
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| greg_mitch wrote: |
What are you thoughts on "headroom" Mac?
I do have 3 x 12" woofers in my front three LCR but they are crossed over at approx. 80 Hz with powered sub handling the lower freq's.
I felt like originally when I switched from the H/K to the Behringer amps my speakers "opened up" quite a bit. Whatever that means...but they sounded different.
I think the main difference was that now that I had enough power, I was able to EQ my room or better put...accurately set the levels on all of the my speakers at my listening volume...before I think my center channel was out of oomph at my listening volume...does that even make any sense?
Probably not using the right terminology but...don't jump on me. |
Hmmm, now your asking for an opinion.
Well let me say it this way. Its difficult to compare separate amps to AVR amps. They are like 2 different animals completely.
Now, do I think your (3) 12" at 80hz are going to hurt the overall performance of a "GOOD QUALITY" AVR........ not from the stuff I've tested and that includes Yamahas, Pioneers, Denons, Sonys, Kenwoods and whatever else and thats been on 15" drivers for bottom end. Of course I use 18s for my bass but I'm also all pro stuff in my main system.
But let me ask this. If your running a separate powered sub then why not just up your low end cross over point?
Let me just repeat something. Good strong sound, whether its highs, mids, bass or sub bass needs clean strong power and you can pretty much only get that from separates. You will probably be disappointed at some point. The amp section in separates is completely different then the amps in AVRs.
I personally dont even like anything more the 2 channel amps. I cringe at 5 and 7 channel amps (separates). Even for the basic reason that if it blows up you only have to replace a 2 channel amp. Not a high dollar 5 or 7 channel one. Plus the power supply demands on a high powered separate amp. Better to have 4 power supplies driving 7 channels then 1 supply driving the same. But remember this is higher power stuff.
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | greg_mitch wrote: |
What are you thoughts on "headroom" Mac?
I do have 3 x 12" woofers in my front three LCR but they are crossed over at approx. 80 Hz with powered sub handling the lower freq's.
I felt like originally when I switched from the H/K to the Behringer amps my speakers "opened up" quite a bit. Whatever that means...but they sounded different.
I think the main difference was that now that I had enough power, I was able to EQ my room or better put...accurately set the levels on all of the my speakers at my listening volume...before I think my center channel was out of oomph at my listening volume...does that even make any sense?
Probably not using the right terminology but...don't jump on me. |
Hmmm, now your asking for an opinion.
Well let me say it this way. Its difficult to compare separate amps to AVR amps. They are like 2 different animals completely.
Now, do I think your (3) 12" at 80hz are going to hurt the overall performance of a "GOOD QUALITY" AVR........ not from the stuff I've tested and that includes Yamahas, Pioneers, Denons, Sonys, Kenwoods and whatever else and thats been on 15" drivers for bottom end. Of course I use 18s for my bass but I'm also all pro stuff in my main system.
But let me ask this. If your running a separate powered sub then why not just up your low end cross over point?
Let me just repeat something. Good strong sound, whether its highs, mids, bass or sub bass needs clean strong power and you can pretty much only get that from separates. You will probably be disappointed at some point. The amp section in separates is completely different then the amps in AVRs.
I personally dont even like anything more the 2 channel amps. I cringe at 5 and 7 channel amps (separates). Even for the basic reason that if it blows up you only have to replace a 2 channel amp. Not a high dollar 5 or 7 channel one. Plus the power supply demands on a high powered separate amp. Better to have 4 power supplies driving 7 channels then 1 supply driving the same. But remember this is higher power stuff. |
I could probably bump up my crossover if my AVR had the option (right now I have "small" or "large" to pick from).
My sub will go to 100Hz or so it is advertised before dropping off....need to take some measurements (or sell all that crap).
The real question is if I don't need to go 100 mph...does it make sense to get a sports car or will a 2-door Cavalier get me where I need to go just the same and with a grin?
It seems like it is a resounding, "You will regret getting rid of your pro amps!"
Which is ok...but it redirects my AVR search to less built-in power and just needs pre-outs.
I think the Onkyo 707 or 807 would be fine then.
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paw
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: Arvada, CO
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| greg_mitch wrote: | | ...my rack is a bit of a mess right now. |
If this is "driving" issue , sounds like you just need to spend a Saturday tidying up the rack. Hopefully it's a rack with built in lacing bars. Then you just need some zip ties or self wrapping velcro. Becareful with the zip ties. Don't pull them to tight. At the minimum, bring the power cords to one side and the interconnects to the other side. If you want to take it a step further, separate the interconnects and the speaker wires. For this you need a multi layer lacing system.
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| paw wrote: | | greg_mitch wrote: | | ...my rack is a bit of a mess right now. |
If this is "driving" issue , sounds like you just need to spend a Saturday tidying up the rack. Hopefully it's a rack with built in lacing bars. Then you just need some zip ties or self wrapping velcro. Becareful with the zip ties. Don't pull them to tight. At the minimum, bring the power cords to one side and the interconnects to the other side. If you want to take it a step further, separate the interconnects and the speaker wires. For this you need a multi layer lacing system. |
What I meant by that is that I have several boxes that could be consolidated into one box that does all of the functions...switchers, converters, transcoders, controllers, etc. It looks crazy and I need like 18 receptacles for it all.
I definitely need to organize the cables...but need to figure out what I am putting the stuff in first...I have a spare MA Slim 5 that I don't want to use anymore if anyone is interested. 43 rack space I think...
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| greg_mitch wrote: | It seems like it is a resounding, "You will regret getting rid of your pro amps!"
Which is ok...but it redirects my AVR search to less built-in power and just needs pre-outs.
I think the Onkyo 707 or 807 would be fine then. |
I would much rather have a 707 or 807 with your separate Behringers than the 1007 alone.
SC
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adimarten23
Joined: 18 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:00 am Post subject: |
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I like the sound quality of my Yamahas much more than my Onkyo - not to say anything was necessarily wrong with the Onkyo, I just prefer the Yamaha. Now granted, Onkyo was not high-end so that could make a difference.
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | greg_mitch wrote: | It seems like it is a resounding, "You will regret getting rid of your pro amps!"
Which is ok...but it redirects my AVR search to less built-in power and just needs pre-outs.
I think the Onkyo 707 or 807 would be fine then. |
I would much rather have a 707 or 807 with your separate Behringers than the 1007 alone.
SC |
I've been waiting patiently for the 708's to become available refurbed...just keep waiting...
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