CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

Ironman1965 · Joined: 28 Jun 2007 Posts: 98

DO NOT FOLLOW THE TUBE CONDITIONING INSTRUCTIONS IN THE ADVANCED TIPS SECTION IF YOU HAVE A NEC OR G70. PLEASE LEARN FROM MY MISTAKE. If you do, this will be the result......

This WAS a brand new $800 tube with less than 72 hours

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 3:06 am Post subject:

I'd say that's a fluke, sorry to hear(see) it, but I've conditioned dozens of tubes as described in that tips section with no issues.

Then again, that's why it says 'at your own risk' regarding every piece of tech info on the main site.

I really do think it's a fluke though. Was it a new tube or a rebuild?

Ironman1965 · Joined: 28 Jun 2007 Posts: 98

PUT a F'ING DISCLAIMER IN THE ARTICLE FOR F SAKES!!!!!!!

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 3:26 am Post subject:

OK, I see this is a spinoff from another thread here, and you blasted me in it for posting something that killed your tube. I don't normally do this, but I'll blast right back atcha.

As I said above, I have conditioned dozens of tubes, NEC, MEC and Sony, literally any brand of tube that I've bought from VDC, and have never cracked one like you did. I have damaged dozens of tubes due to other stuff, faulty neck boards, video boards, carelessness, missing G2 connections, etc.

If your tube was indeed new, then you don't need to condition it, it's already done at the factory. That's point 1. Point 2, as also stated above, everything and anything posted on the site DOES have 'do this at your own risk' posted in a number of places on the site. You're dealing with expensive and fragile equipment that you've most likely picked up for pennies on the dollar, although it looks like you paid retail for the tube.

You play with expensive tech equipment, you need to be prepared to take risks and losses. I have.. 100s of times. That's how I learned about projectors and how I put up the info that's on the site here. No one reimbursed me for the tubes I ruined, including several brand new ones, the sets that I bought that were crap, or the spot burned tubes due to faulty parts in the set.

Don't blame me or the site for something that we have no control of. I have no idea how you conditioned the tube, whether you got a defective tube, or maybe your set has a HV regulation issue.. I based my information posted on this site from my own experience and from info that I got from Charlie, head tech at VDC.

Sorry about the tube and your loss, but don't go pointing fingers elsewhere.

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 3:31 am Post subject:

Here, right off the home page of the 'advanced procedures'

Disclaimer: All information given here is for informational purposes only. No warranty, expressed or implied, is given that any information on this site is accurate, unbiased, or true. Curt Palme, Sound Solutions Inc. and the webmaster take absolutely no responsibility for any damages that may occur due to a 'do it yourself' approach to maintaining, installing and tweaking your CRT projector. Any modifications or changes you do to your CRT projector is done at your own risk. When in doubt, ask!

Nashou66 · Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY

I am really sorry that happened but I do have to agree with Curt. I have conditioned about 4 tubes similar to Curts method. No issues at all. I think you just got a bum tube, it happens. About a year ago someone got a tube from Tubular outlet that had flaking phosphor. I wonder if that happened to yours? the Phosphor flaked of and the tube cracked.
Look's like a big chunk of it is missing from tube face. Unless that happened from the vacuum pulling some Glycol through.

Id call VDC and see what they say. They probably want the tube back to look at.

Nashou

Mark_A_W · Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 3:52 am Post subject:

Bollocks Curt.

Your procedure is dangerous. As soon as I read "Tube Conditioning Cycle" I feared what had happened.

At the very least, write a specific warning in it about NECs and G70s. And emphasize that you must let the projector warm up, then gradually raise contrast, if the raster is wider than normal, and that the raster must NEVER go off the edge.

That said, if done right there is no danger - the in built warmup screen blasts the raster with 100% contrast. It doesn't kill tubes.

And help Ironman find a tube. I don't think you owe him a tube, but helping him find something usable would go a long way in goodwill.

Ironman1965 · Joined: 28 Jun 2007 Posts: 98

Well... I guess it would be just too difficult to sit down at a keyboard and type the following...

This procedure is not meant for new NEC or G70 tubes. If you use this procedure on a NEC or G70 tube you take the risk of cracking it. Please be aware of this before trying this procedure.

That took me a total of 4 minutes and I'm a hunt and peck typer. I've read the disclaimer you have posted on the main site many times, and I'm not pointing any fingers, although I think not having this disclaimer is a huge over site. You do have to remember that most people come here for help and advice and many of these people do not have electronic degrees. If there are procedures that contain particular hazards, these hazards should be noted. You guys are the Pro's. I'm a journeyman Carpenter/Scaffolder/Steel Fabricator and Welder. I'm a professional, and when I'm teaching someone new, I consider it my responsibility as a professional to warn them of any risks/hazards/issues there may be in the procedures I'm teaching them so they can make the proper decisions when they need to use what I've taught them.

I guess this will go unaddressed and eventually there will be another fluke and someone else will be out a pile of money. I would hope that you will do the right thing and warn those who may try what I've done in the future though.

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 4:11 am Post subject:

You sure like picking fights, don't you Mark?

I'll call Charlie in the AM, but there's NO danger in my procedure, based on the tubes I've done, and from what Charlie at VDC told me.

There are LOTS of warnings on this site. I quoted the main one above. The procedure says not to go above 60 contrast and brightness. As I said, there are too many variables here to point fingers at one thing. Chip imploded a Panasonic green tube without doing anything. Bad tube, or bad Chip? It's happened to me as well. Shite happens.

<edit> I realize I'm overreacting a bit. I will call Charlie at VDC in the AM, early, and will post what he says. I will suggest that Ironman does the same. I'll post my findings.

Ironman1965 · Joined: 28 Jun 2007 Posts: 98

Those are kind words Mark. Thanks. I wasn't posting to try to get restitution. I was posting because I was upset that this happened (anybody would be) and that I thought that there should be a warning and was unimpressed that there wasn't. This was not meant to be an attack on the forum or it's members. Nobody here can say they wouldn't be emotional if they just tossed $900 out the window. I'm not making excuses nor looking for any. I'm just stating a rather skewed emotional opinion. If anybody out there knows a good deal on a new (not rebuilt) P16LJE07HKA. Please PM me.

Ray.

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 4:23 am Post subject:

I'll apologize for a couple of the above comments. I get REALLY testy when someone attacks me or this site. Call my kids stupid, my g/f fat or ugly, but mess with this site, and the claws come out. Smile

I still think the info is accurate, but as I stated, I'll call Charlie at VDC in the AM. To my recollection (that conditioning article has been up for a few years), he said that gradual tube conditioning was fine, I think he said that even 100 contrast and brightness is OK on the tubes. As Mark said, the warmup mode on a number of sets, including NEC, Sony and Barco, throw a 100 IRE field on all tubes at a very high level. But I'll verify this with Charlie in the AM.

Mark_A_W · Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 4:31 am Post subject:

Also, I should point out, that if the Deflection coil was not FULLY hard up against the bell, the raster may have been wider than normal.

That is not the procedure's fault. That is user error.

Ironman1965 · Joined: 28 Jun 2007 Posts: 98

I can call VDC till I'm blue in the face Curt and it won't do me a lick of good. I did the hardware swap myself an I imagine that in itself voids my warranty. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by saying that there should be a disclaimer. You yourself have added many disclaimers of shock hazards in other articles and posts you've made. That doesn't necessarily mean that you will get shocked if you make adjustments inside your projector. I've made adjustments in my XG and even in my old POS Novabeam without a single zap. Does that mean I'd say it's a fluke that you have? No. Does that mean just because I haven't I shouldn't warn other people of a possible hazard. No. Why? Because others have been zapped which means there is a possibility. I see two professionals disagreeing on this issue. Mark says it's dangerous. you say it's not. Maybe your both wrong. Maybe you're both right. To quote you back at yourself Curt, "maybe you fluked out by not destroying the P16LJE's you've preformed this on" "maybe you didn't". Maybe maybe maybe. Really though, in the end, this is a moot issue. Would it really be so hard to make a warning in the article if for no other reason than to prevent this kind of dissent again. At least if there is a warning and someone decides to do the procedure anyway, at least they won't be as shocked as I was to find out their tube cracked and they can't say why wasn't there some kind of warning. Even a disclaimer that the procedure doesn't need to be preformed on new P16LJE series tube. This would also put some onus on VDC to be selling rebuilt as rebuilt and new as new and informing their customers as to what needs to be done when they receive their tube if anything at all. Maybe when you talk to your buddy at VDC you can suggest to them to include a document with each tube they sell (doesn't need to be more than a que card in size) explaining what needs to be done to the tube or not before putting into use.

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 4:52 am Post subject:

From what I remember (but I'm not quite clear on this), is Charlie said that shooting off the phosphor face is OK, as long as the beam is defocused. No question that a very bright focused electron beam off the face of the tube WILL shatter it. I've seen that happen with the V board failure in the NECs. That could have happened here too. The V board failed as a course of wear and tear, the beam went off the face of the tube and shattered the face of it.

That has happened twice to me, once right in front of me as I was working on the set, which of course had nothing to do with the conditioning of the tube. (which wasn't being done at the time)

Ironman1965 · Joined: 28 Jun 2007 Posts: 98

Ironman1965 · Joined: 28 Jun 2007 Posts: 98

Chuchuf · Joined: 11 Mar 2006 Posts: 548

BTW, just so that everyone knows......conditioning is NOT needed on NEW Panasonic/MEC tubes.
I also have conditioned quite a few tubes and never had one crack. BUT I don't run the raster off the edge of the tube (this does run the risk of cracking from uneven heating). I do electronically defocus and run a lower contrast setting for a long time gradually bringing it up.
Terry

David_Web · Joined: 02 May 2007 Posts: 418 Location: Sweden

I don't understand.
At full power you should be running max 34W to each tube. (IIRC beam current for a marquee if 1mA at 34kV per tube)
With brightness and contrast at 30% that would be way less. 10W maximum. Probably less. Should not even get things luke warm.
At the start it would even be less bright than a normal scene.

How long did it take for it to crack?

Ben851 · Joined: 13 Sep 2008 Posts: 221 Location: Ottawa, Ontario

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:00 pm Post subject:

OK, as promised, I talked to Charlie. According to him, he thinks there is no danger of tube implosion when doing tube conditioning the way it's outlined on the main site. Now, I note that he didn't say NO danger, he said that he didn't THINK there was any danger. I told him about this scenario, and he did also repeat that NEW tubes do not need conditioning. He also says that he hasn't sold any NEC/Sony rebuilt tubes in about 5 years or so.

As has been said elsewhere, VDC is not in the business to rip off people, so if they sold you a new tube, then it was indeed a new tube.

Charlie and I discussed tube cracking in general, and we both agreed that there are many scenarios where tubes will crack, such as HV spikes, deflection failure, etc. He also said that Philips had an issue with a consumer RP set years ago that had random HV spikes under certain conditions, and lots of tubes cracked, leading to manufacturers putting the series resistors with the HV leads, preventing excessive HV current from reaching the tubes (thus the series resistors in the MArquee and other HV splitters)

So, at this point I'm not changing the text on the main site.