CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[cmjohnson]

I'm interested in finding out what's so special about the Barco Cine 9.

The specs, from the Cineversum site, show:

CRTs 9" Matsushita P19 LUG
6-pole Electromagnetic focusing (TSN)
9 Zone Digital Astigmatism
Liquid Cooling
Optical Coupling
Lenses HFQ900
Color Correction
Color Filtering
12 lp/mm Optical Resolution
Stepless Scheimpflug Correction
Brightness 1200 Lumen (@ 10% peak white)
ANSI Lumens (Boost mode) 300 Lumen
Contrast Ratio > 30 000 : 1 (Full On/Off)
Inputs

(loop through)Video on BNC
(loop through) S-Video on 4 pins mini DIN
(loop through) Video on 4 pins mini DIN
RGsB/RGBS/RGBHV on D9 Connector
RGsB/RGBS/RGBHV On 5 BNC
Component (R-Y, Y, B-Y) on 3 BNC
RGsB/RGBS/RGBHV with 3-Level Sync
Component (R-Y, Y, B-Y) 3-Level Sync
Resolution Video and HDTV 2000 TV Lines
Computer Sources 2500 x 2000
Video / HD Compatibility 480i (interlaced NTSC)
576i (interlaced PAL/SECAM)
480p (progressive NTSC)
576i (progressive PAL/SECAM)
1080i (HDTV)
720p (HDTV)
1080p (HDTV)
RGB Bandwidth 180 MHz
Scan Frequencies Horizontal 15/32 - 132 kHz
Vertical 37 - 210 Hz
Minimal Retrace Time Horizontal 1,8µs
Vertical 300µs
Convergence 9x9 - Zone



This almost reads the same in terms of specifications as the other top end projectors. Other than a slight
increase in total bandwidth, 180 MHz, it reads pretty much identically to a LUG-equipped 9500LC with HD10E lenses.

I've also seen spec sheets that listed higher than 2500x2000 resolution, but of course I can't find them right now.


There are those who believe that the Cine 9 is the single best CRT projector ever made.

I'd like to know why, and how it's better. And, what does it take to make a Marquee 9500LC its equal or better
in every way?


I'm not so concerned about the 180 MHz bandwidth. It's overkill for even 1080p and I don't see any point in trying to
boost the bandwidth when you already have more than you'll ever need.

The Cine 9 uses the same design focus yoke as you WANT to use in a Marquee, and if you're using Frankenyoke Mark IIs
(or better yet, Barkensteins) then you don't have any disadvantage THERE.

My guess is that the combination that makes the Cine 9 the top dog is the combination of the high resolution LUG CRTs
and the excellent spot size of the Kanto-Denshi focus yoke design. If you have those, you should be fully able to
equal the resolution performance of the Cine 9. If you just have LCP tubes, but have the better yokes, you should
be able to get really close.


Am I missing anything important here?



CJ

[Nashou66]

According to MP he states they over estimated the 180mhz bandwidth. Also on the newer marquees TSE developed a peaking circuit for the Vim to have it go much higher than the stated 150mhz bandwidth, I say the Barco would be easier for the end user to set up and get a better picture . With the Marquee you pointed out the need to get into the secrete menus to really get an optimum set up. Also the Barcos had the better HFQ900 lenses. Not normally found on the Marquee and Not even an Option from the factory if I am correct.

So its debatable, also like most know a perfect set up is needed to get 1080p@60 to resolve correctly, and as stated earlier with the barcos controls reaching that perfection is much easier.

Thats my Take on it.

Athanasios

[stefuel]

This is a interesting thread and I think tubes play a major role in the final outcome. The spot size of the 5,000 hour Thomas that is in my 4600 right now is almost half the size of the other two LCP's that are in it. However, for video, I'm not so sure it's worth the extra money spent for the "king of the hill" Barco. Now if your bag is gaming or graphics work stations then yes. As long as you can resolve what you're feeding it then who cares. Of course you always can have bragging rights

[cmjohnson]

IIRC, the HD10E (or is that F?) is the same as the HFQ900s. Same lens, different name.

I could be wrong about that.

I once had a set of HFQ900s. Got them from .gov surplus. Paid 140 bucks for the set. Tried them and didn't see a difference, so I
sold them, for a good profit but not maybe as much as I should have.

But, that was before I had any 1080p sources. Maybe if I HAD had them, I could have found the 900s to be signficantly better than the
GT17s that are on my 9500.

I wish I still had my Marquee test chassis. But I haven't been active in testing or modding Marquees in a couple of years and I'm not
sure I really want to get back into that now, either. I've got a series of things to do to my machine when I pull it down in a couple
of weeks for a five year overhaul, but I'm not looking to get back into R&D mode.

CJ

[macgyver655]

All of those external specs can be meaningless between makes. Its the quality and cleanliness of all the signals flying around inside the projector itself that truly makes a difference.

[emdawgz1]

I dont know about stats... Ihave seen the runco DTV1101 (Barco 1209) and the 9500, and the G90...

I'd be really happy with any one of the 3. The 90 and the runco have slightly better color....IMHO

[mp20748]

This is a projector and very familiar with. In fact, I have three of them, and every part that they use. I;ve been repairing them for the past 5 years.

Would I remove my 9500LC Ultra and go with a Barco 909 for my theater - Nope!

The Barco 909 is a very powerful CRT projector, but none of that power has anything to do with bandwidth. It's just like the Sony G90, Marquee 9500 and anything else out there CRT, they have been greatly overrated with the bandwidth ratings.

But the fact is, the Marquee stock even without the VDC peaking fix, is still the highest bandwidth CRT projector manufactured. Oh, I forgot to mention that I also have a G90 here as well, so I'm not speaking from what I read on the internet or what people tell me. I've tested them all.

On bandwidth. It's one spec that should be the main spec for High Performance video, but what you read a lot of is focus, lenses and magnetics. they all are very important for sharpness, but if the bandwidth is not there, you're not going to resolve anything that's rated for a bandwidth that the projector is not capable of. So we read a lot about LUGs and frankenyokes for best focus, and it's true that they do get you better focus, but only bandwidth will get you resolving power.

I have in my Marquu 9500LC a set of focus yokes from a Barco 909, they were designed for the LUG's, and are the premier Frankenyokes for CRT. I have the standard 9" tubes in my marquee, but even with those stock CRT's, I can blow 1920x1080p off the charts, even at 72hz. That has a lot to do with the electronics first. The only thing I've found to limit my performance is the Gt17 lenses. I can tell they are not quite ready for true 1080P. Almost, but not quite there.

The Barco 909 shares with the G90 in having very elaborate and complex adjustments. Very powerful in that regard, but until you really undertand what really happens when an image is properly resolved, they fall short on the performance end. But that's not a problem at all, because most people are clueless as to what's meant when a image is properly resolved, which by the way involves lense, coils, focus and a high bandwidth video chain.

I posted a st of barco 909 yokes about a year ago. no one jumped on them, why??? They're really better than the 1292
coils.

The only thing I need now is better lenses, and that's the only thing I'm missing from the barco 909 stuff I have so I'm waiting on a few more ()('s

To answer to question, all of the bandwidth specs for all the CRT projectors is hyped up and false.

[Nashou66]

[macgyver655]

Not meaning to change the subject here but if you believe those tubes produce a smaller spot size, why do you think that is?

Oh yeah, I know the answer.

[Nashou66]

if your talking to Chip the answer would be they are in an Ampro

If talking to me then I have no idea since they were in Marquee magnetics and we all know that they can't be better than an Ampro

lol

Nashou

[bbfarmht]

[Ile]

[mp20748]

Marquee 9500LC Ultra focused out to the edge using Internal 62khz rate;

Stock CRT's / GT-17 lenses and a few other little tweaks..

82" wide screen

edit: took shots over in now darker room...

[macgyver655]

[Nashou66]

The size of the grids. And the size of the phosphor grain, from the smoothness of the phosphor id say that too would have to play a part.

Athanasios

[r.bauer]

The lenses and the 6-pole dynamic astig adjustments do it for me. The real bonus it offers is flare reduction, as there is usually always some left. That 909/Cine9 is the sharpest projector I have ever seen. You won't believe the sharpness in the corners. On Larger screens the 909/Cine9 really shines, as the quality of the optics become more important. Cine 9 on a 3m (10ft) wide screen is still my favourite, but it took me many, many hours to dial it in perfectly. After that, color calibration was a breeze.

[macgyver655]

I'll give you the short answer. Its the gun, more specifically grid 1.

[ElTopo]

Yes the Barco is the BEST !

Why ? Because it's the KING !

ElTopo

[Curt Palme]

I'll add a bit here...

The Cine 9/909 is an all digital chassis when it comes to adjustments, which means that unlike the older BArcos, all settings are kept in the digital domain until the final output board, which is a D/A converter. That means if you set a focus of say 208 (on a range of 0-254), it will stay at 208 because it's stored digitally. Other sets use analog waveform generators that can be affected by drifting components (due to age, tolerance or temperature), whereas a digital setting does not.

The older Barcos had the video boards sandwiched between the H/V boards and power supplies, which both radiate high frequency pulses, which can be picked up by the video boards. On the new set design, the video boards are all the way to one side of the chassis, and are additionally shielded, making them cleaner.

(the above came from a tech at BArco that I talked to a couple of months ago).

I'll add that unlike the Sony, which to me has some set settings that are not required (what's with all the sync settings that cause image glitching or brightness shifting until you set the correctly?), whereas the Barco has all sorts of 'here's enough adjustments so you can dial the set in PERFECTLY) when it comes to color, focus, astig, convergence and geometry.

I'm not a setup perfectionist, but the first time I worked on a 909, all I could say was 'HOLY CRAP!'

[Curt Palme]

I'll add a bit here...

The Cine 9/909 is an all digital chassis when it comes to adjustments, which means that unlike the older BArcos, all settings are kept in the digital domain until the final output board, which is a D/A converter. That means if you set a focus of say 208 (on a range of 0-254), it will stay at 208 because it's stored digitally. Other sets use analog waveform generators that can be affected by drifting components (due to age, tolerance or temperature), whereas a digital setting does not.

The older Barcos had the video boards sandwiched between the H/V boards and power supplies, which both radiate high frequency pulses, which can be picked up by the video boards. On the new set design, the video boards are all the way to one side of the chassis, and are additionally shielded, making them cleaner.

(the above came from a tech at BArco that I talked to a couple of months ago).

I'll add that unlike the Sony, which to me has some set settings that are not required (what's with all the sync settings that cause image glitching or brightness shifting until you set the correctly?), whereas the Barco has all sorts of 'here's enough adjustments so you can dial the set in PERFECTLY) when it comes to color, focus, astig, convergence and geometry.

I'm not a setup perfectionist, but the first time I worked on a 909, all I could say was 'HOLY CRAP!'

[BruceLynn]

One has to separate out the 'machine' in isolation, from the 'product' in context.

The machine in isolation is pretty impressive on paper and in experience. Frankly, in my view not the best 'experience' even if technical it has the potential to create the best picture if it has a great input source (like digital vide tape). Primariy problem is the fan noise. For any one with moderately sensitive hearing, during the quiet moments of a film, the fan noise cooling those 9" monsters is all you hear. A major distraction. Secondarily, it is so ginormous that it just dominates any room unless you have a major cinema (20+ seats and high ceilings). You don't look at the projector, but it is so big that I'm convinced that it has its own gravitational field. I like my JVC DLA HD1 better than I did my Barco Cine 9 for these reasons.

The product is context is presently a total loser. Not only is it super expensive to get any replacement parts or service due to the way Barco screwed it up when it summarily abandonned the consumer business, but it is virtually impossible to even get the stuff you need. Just shipping the monster unit to one of the few people in the world (like Curt) who can think about servicing it costs more than buying a brand new JVC DLA HD1.

If you have more money than you know what to do with and want to sink thousands of dollars each year into service (not to mention being without a cinema for months at a time that it takes to get the thing fixed), then you can maybe consider a Cine9. However, all that said, I am so upset with Barco's unprofessional and irresponsible way that it handled the abandonment of this product, that I find great distaste buying anything from that company ever again.

Bruce
UK

www.maldivescomplete.com
www.dynamicwork.co.uk
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