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Another HPVS bites the dust!
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antorsae



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 297


Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:20 am    Post subject: Another HPVS bites the dust!

I think it's my 3rd HPVS dead in one of my Ultras:

- My Ultra HPVS works OK but after some hours of watching the PJ "blinks" (but there is no click or noise), the image comes back again but unfocused. It does that every other few hours. I performed the HPVS maintenance thread on that HPVS with the same results.

- I was with the PJ on but nothing on (black screen) and I started to hear HV crackles (the same ones as when you turn the PJ on). The HPVS apparently died.

- ...and I have another one that doesn't turn on either.

Can these things be fixed? Why do they fail?
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draganm



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:22 am    Post subject: Re: Another HPVS bites the dust!

antorsae wrote:
Can these things be fixed? Why do they fail?
check the 85 volt rail coming from LVPS. If it's off it will damage the HVPS
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antorsae



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 297


Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:11 am    Post subject:

Thanks Dragan. Is there an easy-to-access location of the 85V rail? My PJ is ceiling mounted...

I will put in a different LVPS (I have some spares) and check...
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stefuel



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 10:07 am    Post subject:

Now if this were a AmPro on it's third HVPS, the AmPro haters club would be all over you like stink on poo. But as it's a Marquee, all you'll get is help and a pat on the shoulder with the comment that "everything will be OK" Laughing
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:53 am    Post subject:

I have 6 marquee's and not one bad HVPS Shocked Shocked Shocked

Athanasios

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1031



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 12:47 pm    Post subject:

If i remember correct there is similar multiturn trimmer (at lvps) for adjusting +85v voltage ,that was for P14 adjustment. If that is case, then there is possibility, that there can be same kind voltage variations at +85v line that P14 line had when that cheapo original trimmer started to fail. maybe it is time to replace that trimmer and adjust that +85v line to proper level..
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 1:58 pm    Post subject:

THey seem to die in runs. LAst year I couldn't keep them in stock, now I have 10 here as spares. THis year it's Barco quads, I think I've sold 30 this year so far, go figure.
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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 3:05 pm    Post subject:

1031 wrote:
If i remember correct there is similar multiturn trimmer (at lvps) for adjusting +85v voltage ,that was for P14 adjustment. If that is case, then there is possibility, that there can be same kind voltage variations at +85v line that P14 line had when that cheapo original trimmer started to fail. maybe it is time to replace that trimmer and adjust that +85v line to proper level..


Yep, there's a pot for the +85 volt rail adjustment on the LVPS. And it does share the same type pot that's used for the P14 voltage.. However, the +85 volt rail I don't recall being used in the HVPS. I know it's being used for one of the two 85 volt rails on the neck boards. And it's also being used for the HDM, because the deflection drivers operate from the +85 volt rail.

The HVPS mainly uses the 390 volt rail from the LVPS.


If I had that many HVPS's fail on me, I would suspect it being under an usual load. I say that because the way it has been indicated to fail. Going out and coming back blooming indicates that one or more of the internal (potted) multiplier diodes has failed. Something that was a real problem on the 34kv early 8000/9000 Marquee HVPS.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 3:33 pm    Post subject:

I did have a customer with a Marquee 8000 a long time ago that got one HVPS under warranty from me, about 6 months after I sold him one.

Turns out later that he had put 4 supplies into the damn set, and never told me. He ended up going away after I refused to give him a second free HVPS, and I pointedly told him that he had issues elsewhere. (not to mention the set <giggle>)

I never did figure out what caused the multiple HVPS failures, but now that I've had several of the Ultra supplies die on me (one was repairable), I don't know that they are any more reliable than any of the older Spellman supplies.

I also can't quite figure out how a HVPS could be overloaded. The load is simple- HV out to the splitter, out to the tubes. An overload could occur if constant arcing occured, but you couldn't watch the set that way.

Now, the HVPS also drives the G2 lines, but again, an overload there could be shown by excessive G2 values, or again, arcing/noise in the 600 volt G2 lines. It's a mystery to me..
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draganm



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 3:47 pm    Post subject:

I'll check tonight which rails the HVPS rely's on, the flow chart is at home.

Curt Palme wrote:
I also can't quite figure out how a HVPS could be overloaded. The load is simple- HV out to the splitter, out to the tubes. An overload could occur if constant arcing occured, but you couldn't watch the set that way.
..
what about plugging the HV feed into the wrong port on the splitter? I know the one marked IN is different from the other 3 which have resistors in line. However plugging it in worng would decrease the load on the HVPS no?


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Curt Palme
CRT Tech


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 3:51 pm    Post subject:

Nope, no difference. Remember that the resistance of the tube is in essence infinite, all you're doing with the HVPS is charging up three capacitors, that being the 34Kv between the tube on the inside and ground on the outside. Those 3.3K ohm resistors do nothing other than at startup, the circuit doesn't see them once the HV is at full power.
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Mark_A_W



Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:38 pm    Post subject:

Curt Palme wrote:
THey seem to die in runs. LAst year I couldn't keep them in stock, now I have 10 here as spares. THis year it's Barco quads, I think I've sold 30 this year so far, go figure.



And everybody goes on about NEC reliability....
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 10:39 pm    Post subject:

You need an Ampro.
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Mark_A_W



Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:08 pm    Post subject:

Yep, I'd take a 4600 (is that right?) any day.

I've never heard of one here though, only the early ES focuses 9" Ampros.
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stefuel



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:17 pm    Post subject:

Mark_A_W wrote:
Yep, I'd take a 4600 (is that right?) any day.

I've never heard of one here though, only the early ES focuses 9" Ampros.


I have two 4600HD's and a 3600HD. I love them. I'm currently modding one of the 4600's to take Nash's Thomas tubes and fitted with Marquee LC optics. The biggest complaint with the 4600 is the cheap-o optics that don't focus 100% in the furthest corners from the lens. Focus this... bitch Mr. Green

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A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels

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Mark_A_W



Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:21 pm    Post subject:

Sounds like you have an extra 4600HD Wink

Pity the shipping to here would cost me over a grand all up...
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tse



Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 1014
Location: Sweatbucket, Fl.

Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 12:37 am    Post subject:

draganm wrote:
I'll check tonight which rails the HVPS rely's on, the flow chart is at home.

Curt Palme wrote:
I also can't quite figure out how a HVPS could be overloaded. The load is simple- HV out to the splitter, out to the tubes. An overload could occur if constant arcing occured, but you couldn't watch the set that way.
..
what about plugging the HV feed into the wrong port on the splitter? I know the one marked IN is different from the other 3 which have resistors in line. However plugging it in worng would decrease the load on the HVPS no?




The 3.3K resistors limit the arc current. When one output is shorted to ground (35000V/3300 ohms) the arc current is a little more than 10A. Much better than the hundreds or thousands of amps that would flow if the resistors weren't there. Any one tube can conduct 3mA peak current, like blue with a bright sky. In that case the HV would drop about 10v across the resistor (3300 ohms x 0.003A) which isn't enough to change the picture size or focus very much. It is a compromise. Limit current from arc good. Drop voltage from peak video current bad.

Scott

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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508


Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 1:37 pm    Post subject:

tse wrote:
draganm wrote:
I'll check tonight which rails the HVPS rely's on, the flow chart is at home.

Curt Palme wrote:
I also can't quite figure out how a HVPS could be overloaded. The load is simple- HV out to the splitter, out to the tubes. An overload could occur if constant arcing occured, but you couldn't watch the set that way.
..
what about plugging the HV feed into the wrong port on the splitter? I know the one marked IN is different from the other 3 which have resistors in line. However plugging it in worng would decrease the load on the HVPS no?




The 3.3K resistors limit the arc current. When one output is shorted to ground (35000V/3300 ohms) the arc current is a little more than 10A. Much better than the hundreds or thousands of amps that would flow if the resistors weren't there. Any one tube can conduct 3mA peak current, like blue with a bright sky. In that case the HV would drop about 10v across the resistor (3300 ohms x 0.003A) which isn't enough to change the picture size or focus very much. It is a compromise. Limit current from arc good. Drop voltage from peak video current bad.

Scott




Wonder why a resistor wasn't placed at the output of the P/S instead of in the splitter. Then the main line would be protected also.
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1031



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Finland

Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 2:01 pm    Post subject:

macgyver655 wrote:




Wonder why a resistor wasn't placed at the output of the P/S instead of in the splitter. Then the main line would be protected also.


From my memory there, is some series resistance to HV out lead at inside of HVPS.

_________________
Marquee 9500LC (Frankenyokes / Thomas electric tubes / HD-10L / +many modīs)
DVDO VP-50
New hobby, Rally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2Rtpr1njs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZP9FEFXV5c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j065vei6j6s
http://www.facebook.com/pages/JTS-Racing-team/204443719572685
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macgyver655



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508


Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 3:08 pm    Post subject:

1031 wrote:
macgyver655 wrote:




Wonder why a resistor wasn't placed at the output of the P/S instead of in the splitter. Then the main line would be protected also.


From my memory there, is some series resistance to HV out lead at inside of HVPS.



I believe this is what your talking about. Very low ohm compared to the splitter ones.



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