CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[dropzone7]

I just posted some initial thoughts on the XG-FULLHD card I installed last night over in that thread. I wanted to get some help from you guys that have scalers regarding what I should be looking for and how I should have sources setup to best utilize what the VP50 does. I suppose it would help if I first listed my sources and the video chain.

-Panasonic BD30 Blu Ray
-Toshiba HDA2 HD-DVD  Onkyo TXSR705 HDMI Receiver  DVDO VP50 HDMI IN  HDMI OUT  XG-FULLHD  NEC XG-852
-Sci-Atlanta SA8300HD-DVR


So, not much to my setup really. What I have removed is the following: Crescendo RTC2200, HDFury, power supply for the HDFury, VGA to 5BNC cable.


I installed the XG-FULLHD card and the VP50 last night and everything went fairly smoothly. Gary Murrell got me started with the VP50 by suggesting the following settings to start:

Output Menu Settings: “Digital Output”, “1080i, 60”, “4:2:2 YPbPr colorspace”, “video levels”.

This got me up and running right away with my first source, the BD30 Blu Ray player. Something that did not make sense to me however was that the player was inputting 1080p/60 to the VP50 from the very beginning and the VP50 was outputting 1080i/60 as I had specified. I went into the player settings to try to change the resolution to 1080i since this is all I have ever used with my XG. It seemed dead set on using 1080p, the player that is. So, I left that as is and confirmed on the VP50 info screen that I was still sending 1080p/60 and getting 1080i/60 out to the XG. Later on when I tried switching sources to the HDA2 I discovered that I needed to make some adjustments there as this player will not output 1080p. So, after having to change the colorspace back to 4:2:2 for the HD player, I got that up and running fine and was sending 1080i/60 and also outputting that to the XG. Now, I try switching back to the Blu Ray player and that is where I run into problems. The XG locked onto the signal but the menu was huge from the BD30 player and I could not get it to send a 1080p signal the way it was before. I had to change back to 1080i in the BD30 setup menu to get a picture again. No problem, I have never used anything but 1080i before and that’s all I expect to get out of my XG. I just don’t understand why I was able to send a 1080p signal from the Blu Ray player briefly.

Next I started experimenting with the framerate adjustments in the VP50. This is where I need some advice from you guys. I set the framerate to 60hz Locked initially and this looked good to me. Then I tried changing to 72hz Locked and while I did get an image, I could see frames jumping every few seconds (is this what you call judder?). So then I tried the “Unlock” mode and manually selected 72hz. The jumping of frames I noticed in “Locked” mode was gone. So, my questions are basically related to the framerate settings that are best suited for 1080i output to my XG and what deinterlacing mode I should be selecting in the VP50 menu. This is my first scaler and I want to make sure I’m using it to its fullest potential.

[Nashou66]

I am not familiar with the VP-50 but most VP's have a section for EDID where you can specify what the source unit will see as the display, you might have it set to auto so it goes right through to the Moome card which accepts 1080p and I think your player might select the higest rez possible. this might be it but not sure.
Gary or Gino would know best as they are VP-50 users.

Athanasios

[Person99]

I'm a Lumagen guy, not a VP50 guy, but a couple things:
1) You want the BD player sending 1080p/24 if possible then 1080i/72 or 1080i/96 to the PJ.
2) Although we say "72" you actually want it sending it at 71.928 for true frame rate conversion.
3) If you do 72 (71.928) from a 1080i/60 broadcast that is dropping frames (i.e. not a smooth 3:2 for run time adjustments) or not from a progressive sourced content, you will have jumping.

[Person99]

One other thought, any BD player can produce a flawless 1080i/60 from the 1080p/24 source. If you do actually just want 1080i/60, then get the BD player in that mode (via EDID or whatever) then genlock the input and output rates.

[dropzone7]

[Nashou66]

I am Like dave and have a Lumagen, In the EDID settings you can choose which resolution that input will accept from a source. So if you only want one resolution to come form your Blu ray player because you will only use it for BD then set that input on the VP to only accept 1080p24 or 60, if you VP and
BD player can accept or out put those. Also say you have your HD player play SD and HD disc's then you can set it for only 1080i@60 and 480i if it can fool the player to out put it. Other wise most BD players default to 480p. Dave and I have the LG BH100 that you can fool with the VP to output only 1080p24 and 480i using a method similar to what i just described. For Sd DVD getting 480i out form the HDMI is almost as close to an SDI signal as your going to get. But i went to far with this......Sorry if its confusing.

Athanasios

[dropzone7]

Oh, my head!!!

[Person99]

Basically everything Athanasios said.

EDID allows a display to tell a source (originally used in the computer world) all the resolutions it can accept and its preferred resolution. The VP50 did not originally have EDID editing capabilities (one of the many reasons I thought it was inferior to the Lumagen), but they kept saying it was going to be added via firmware update. So, see if it has it now.

I did a quick Google and it seems the BD30 has an "auto" mode for resolution output which will output everything at 1080p/60. It then has a 1080p/24 enablement of some kind that will do 1080p/24 in the case of BD discs that are that. You need to find that stuff.

Also, it can't do 480i, so what you want is 480p for SD DVDs (if you use it to play that) and 1080p/24 for BD movies.

[dropzone7]

[Gary M.]

Rex, this is very simple, these Lumagen guys can't help you as well as a DVDO user

the DVDO doesn't need a EDID menu, it always requests the best signal and will always let you choose what you want to send, not bashing Lumagen, it is just the way they had to do it with the DVI ports on the older models

do the following

you are running all sources into the Onkyo first correct? (that is the correct way albeit one small difference with the SA cable box toward the end of this reply)

go into the Onkyo and make sure the unit is set to passthru and immediate display off, this is 100% true bypass and won't get in the way of the signal, you can confirm this by pulling up the vp50 info screen when viewing say the BD30, if it says anything other than 422 (like maybe 444) the Onkyo is dicking with the signal

now you have that out of the way:

understand this, the VP50pro will have to have separate memories configured(calibrated) on a by signal by input basis, in your situation you are using only one HDMI input from the Onkyo, all sources are feeding the onkyo, what this means is that 1080p/60 will have separate settings, 1080i will have separate settings, 720p will have separate settings, 480i will have separate settings, 480p will as well, this is by scanrate as well, say you have 720p/50hz PAL it will store separate from 720p/60

now that you understand that, here is what to do setting up your sources(this is all on the gear not the VP50):

1)set the Toshiba HD-DVD to 1080i output, this is what you want for that unit (while viewing a movie on this unit confirm 422 1080i on the VP50 info screen)
2)set the BD30 to 1080p/60 and set the 24p output to on, this is what you want for that unit (while viewing a movie on this unit confirm 422 1080p/24 on the VP50 info screen) the BD30 sits in 1080p/60 mode until a BD movie starts, so don't calibrate unless you confirm the player is outputting 422 1080p/24 while viewing a actual movie

my advice now would be to run the SA cable box to HDMI input 2 on the VP50 and send optical audio directly to the Onkyo from the SA, you see on input 1 on the VP50 you already have a calibration with the Toshiba HD-DVD player at 1080i, if you use the SA at 1080i as well you will share the same calibration that might need to be different from each other

set the SA to 1080i and if it has colorspace choice again you want 422 or 444, not RGB unless forced to (confirm what you are getting on the VP50 while viewing the SA on a HD channel with the VP50 info screen)

get all this done then you can move forward pretty well and I will tell you what to do next calibrating the sources on the VP50

-Gary

[Person99]

[Nashou66]

[Gary M.]

[Person99]

[dropzone7]

Thanks so much for taking the time Gary. Your explanation was very helpful and I am understanding this a bit more every hour I spend with it.

I was able to confirm that the BD30 is now sending 1080p/60 while on the menu and then 1080p/24 when the movie starts. The VP50 screen also shows I'm outputting 1080i/60 and 4:2:2 colorspace. The problem is that I'm getting pretty noticeable judder I guess you would call it. I played around with the framerate settings on the output and it either went from bad to worse or stayed about the same depending on what I selected. While the overall image is spectacular, the little jump every few seconds is distracting. I finally decided to go back in the BD30 menu and turn the 24p setting to "OFF". So then I was sending 1080p/60 from the BD30, less than ideal I suppose but the judder was gone. If there is a way to eliminate that problem then I would love to go back to the 24p setting because it did look a bit better. Not that the 1080p/60 looked bad at all, in fact it looks great to me. Any idea what might be causing this judder problem I'm seeing with 24p enabled?

[Gary M.]

Rex

do you have the latest firmware installed on the VP50?

if you are going to use 1080p/60 from the BD30 flip the Prep option on in the VP50 menu, this gets rid of the BD30 deinterlacing and allows the VP50 to deinterlace and then reinterlace for your output

also make sure your VP50 output framerate is set to locked 60hz

but you are right you need to use 1080p/24 from the BD30, I think this is a issue somewhere on the VP50 output side, maybe old firmware

is that scaler and moome card not worth it?

-Gary

[dropzone7]

I might be wrong but I believe the firmware is v.1.04 if I'm not mistaken. For some reason I thought I should be using 1080i/72hz on the output and I have that working unless I turn the 24p on in the BD30. That whole "lock", "unlock" menu confuses the hell out of me right now but I'm pretty sure I'm using 60hz > unlock > 71.93. Dave said 71.928 but I rounded up because the menu only had two digits. So, I need to forget about 72hz on the output and use locked 60hz, update my firmware if applicable, turn 24p back on in the BD30 and see if the judder is gone.


Gary, the card and VP50 combo have renewed my excitement with this projector. Your review comment about it being like "somebody took a knob labeled bandwidth and cranked it up" was spot on. I love the extra sharpness I'm getting and the colors using the 4:2:2 color space really make the image pop.

[Gary M.]

exactly Rex, I personally don't like the 48hz or 72hz film refresh rates, I stick with 60hz

set the vp50 to 60hz lock, then flip 24p back on with the BD30

also I think the vp50 has a 72hz locked output if you want that, not setting the hz yourself which was probably causing the judder

-Gary

[dropzone7]

[Nashou66]

Guys, I don't think any consumer VP does 1080p@72Hz out with a 1080p input, only 1080i@72 or higher out, This is why you saw judder. the VP cant handle the Bandwidth. I know Gino has his for 72hz but he also played with his Porch setting a lot and also lowered the 1080 to 1050 or 1030, I can remember exactly.
But Drop, for Blu ray set up two output settings. Since most Movies on BD are at a 2.35/40 ration you don't need to waste the bandwidth of your VP or PJ
on the top and Bottom Black Bars in Scope movies. Set the Horizontal resolution to 800 or 817 for 2.40 or 2.35 respectively, since this is the only active part of the Video being shown on the Phosphor and screen. This way you free up bandwidth of your PJ and VP for going to a higher scan rate like 72Hz.
Then For those 1.78 movies on BD set up another output for 1080p@48 or 60 if it isn't too much for the VP which it should be ok. this is called Active A scanning. Craig Rounds of CIR-Engineering did a write up about it on AVS a few years ago called:
Want to optimize your scaler or HTPC for CRT (calculations). This is one of the great things about using a scaler or a Good HTPC. you cant do this with transcoders or
going straight into the internal DVI/HDMI card.

As far as I know the only VP that can do 1080p@72 over HDMI/DVI are the TV One units starting with the C2-2250.
they have lesser scalers but most are only analog outs and ins.

Athanasios