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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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Location: West Seneca NY
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6635
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone know who VDC buys the bellows from ?
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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outwest
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 212
Location: Honolulu
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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I do not have an LC projector so I have no need for the bellows, but the problem you are facing is a very common one in the work that I do. Reproduced parts are part of the landscape now, and it seems that there is a cottage industry out there doing small runs of parts that are no longer available or simply too expensive through the OEM's. I think a lot of the work is being done in Australia. I use the parts, but have never got involved in getting something made so I don't know the economics involved.
I think molding costs will depend on the projected production runs. I believe that there are cheap ways of making a mold for a prototype or a small number of parts, but if the run is to be thousands of units the molds need to be better and more durable which means more expensive. Certainly the precision required in the finished product is a factor.
There is a gentleman that I see posting in another forum that routinely reproduces small runs of parts. He calls his business "Un-obtainium Supply". My recollection is that he does plastic parts, but he may be able to help or provide some insight. I also buy from a large supplier that does a lot of reproduction work and he might offer some wisdom.
Another thing that should be considered is how VDC is going to view this. They need to be profitable to remain in business. The CRT world is shrinking and I am sure that their volumn is down. Perhaps there are reasons to take issue with what VDC is doing, but I think it would be safe to say that it would be much worse if VDC shut down.
The picture shows a couple of reproduction items that I had handy.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| outwest wrote: | | I think molding costs will depend on the projected production runs. I believe that there are cheap ways of making a mold for a prototype or a small number of parts, but if the run is to be thousands of units the molds need to be better and more durable which means more expensive. Certainly the precision required in the finished product is a factor.. |
that's true, they can do something called photo lithography to make a mold out of a resin that would have a limited life span. a precision machined Metal mold will run on avergae about $10K
| outwest wrote: | Another thing that should be considered is how VDC is going to view this. They need to be profitable to remain in business. The CRT world is shrinking and I am sure that their volumn is down. Perhaps there are reasons to take issue with what VDC is doing, but I think it would be safe to say that it would be much worse if VDC shut down.
The picture shows a couple of reproduction items that I had handy. |
I certainly hope they stay in business but it's really hard to worry about "what VDC might think" when they tend to screw us (hobbyists) over every chance they get.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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I was thinking about only allowing three to be made per initial doner, i say we try to get the investor count up then they can decide how many they want, but everyone has to put in the same amout, if we get 100 who want in its 50 bucks each maybe more, then they can get as many as they want at 100 a pop.
or we can try to get an order for 100 bellows at 150 each, this will cover the initial tooling cost.
i need some more ideas here guys. what would work best?" I can change the pool question.
Athanasios
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Arno P
Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 282
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | I was thinking about only allowing three to be made per initial doner, i say we try to get the investor count up then they can decide how many they want, but everyone has to put in the same amout, if we get 100 who want in its 50 bucks each maybe more, then they can get as many as they want at 100 a pop.
or we can try to get an order for 100 bellows at 150 each, this will cover the initial tooling cost.
i need some more ideas here guys. what would work best?" I can change the pool question.
Athanasios |
It will be a balanced calculation....have to find out the initial toolingcost and the "repeatcost" on top of this per bellow....in and excel sheet and see the price per amount...and check with the participants what is still acceptable...
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Tim in Phoenix
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4409
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:09 am Post subject: |
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Guys!
Well, good luck on this but if one merely monitors the bellows pressure and vents glycol in a timely manner, you would see very few failures on these.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:57 am Post subject: |
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Tim Since your hear i do have a question about the bellows "sweating" is this normal? On the 9500LC retro Unit i got the bellows have small drops on them, And if I push on them an hold it there for a second the droplets weep through a bit more but very slight amount. is this how they are suppose to be?
And if its possible to get these made are you in for a few? 
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
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jkruger
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 2435
Location: Carlsbad, CA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:07 am Post subject: |
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Methinks a weeping bellows needs to be relieved of the excess pressure.... Lest it give ultimate freedom to the glycol in confinement....
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:16 am Post subject: |
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Geeze, they're not even reinforced. Just straight rubber. It's simple injection molding and you have a original to make the mold with.
For a hundred clams a pop I might change my name and pop someones patent cherry.
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A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | Geeze, they're not even reinforced. Just straight rubber. It's simple injection molding and you have a original to make the mold with.
For a hundred clams a pop I might change my name and pop someones patent cherry. |
I do not think its straight rubber, its made from Viton i am almost positive and its a press made part needing two aluminum molds for forming it under heat and pressure. One of the techs at VDC I think mentioned it in an e-mail when i inquired about it last year. I think it was it but I cant find that E-mail.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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Arno P
Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 282
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | stefuel wrote: | Geeze, they're not even reinforced. Just straight rubber. It's simple injection molding and you have a original to make the mold with.
For a hundred clams a pop I might change my name and pop someones patent cherry. |
I do not think its straight rubber, its made from Viton i am almost positive and its a press made part needing two aluminum molds for forming it under heat and pressure. One of the techs at VDC I think mentioned it in an e-mail when i inquired about it last year. I think it was it but I cant find that E-mail.
Athanasios |
I can agree that it should be something like viton to handle the glycol....we used viton tubing for inkjet printing head development and viton could stand all the chemicals....whereas for example silicon seem to be leaking air in some way or the other...
Thick stiff tubing viton was "rubbery" though
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
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Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: |
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What I ment was, whatever the material, it's not reinforced. You would have to choose a suitable material but it's just a injection molded part. There are tons of company's that do this.
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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I got a few responses and most have said they would have to press(thermoformed) these. one said it could be done either way but about the same cost wise as either mould would have to be aluminum. no prices from them as they want the sample or a print, so i might have to draw up a set of prints, i knew those mechanical drawing courses in High school would come in handy ! 
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim in Phoenix wrote: | Guys!
Well, good luck on this but if one merely monitors the bellows pressure and vents glycol in a timely manner, you would see very few failures on these.
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you might get away with old bellows if your lucky but if you want to change a c-element to add color filtering or to replace a blistered c-element from sunlight exposure there is no way your going to remove the bellows and be able to re-use them.
| stefuel wrote: | Geeze, they're not even reinforced. Just straight rubber. It's simple injection molding and you have a original to make the mold with.
For a hundred clams a pop I might change my name and pop someones patent cherry. |
pattents expire after 15 years and since the first 9000 LC chamber came out in 93 I think we don't have to worry about infringement.
| Nashou66 wrote: | I do not think its straight rubber, its made from Viton i am almost positive and its a press made part needing two aluminum molds for forming it under heat and pressure. One of the techs at VDC I think mentioned it in an e-mail when i inquired about it last year. I think it was it but I cant find that E-mail.
Athanasios |
guys i spec out polymer o-rings seals for various applications involving chemcial compatibility on a daily basis. Viton is great but it is not recomended for Glycol/Glycerin. The recomended compounds are either
Ethylene Propylene, , Nitrile, or Neoprene. BTW, none of these are rubber, also called Buna N.
It's actually a good thing not to use Viton becasue it;s about double the cost of other compounds. I would like to see the cost at $100. each or less. In the past VDC has sold them for between $50. to $100. bucks so if we can match that then that would be great. 
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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Location: West Seneca NY
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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Nashou66
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gregstv
Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 628
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:51 am Post subject: |
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I have never seen one of these bellows,does someone have a picture?
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