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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Angus_rg wrote: | What would probably be even better is if we could put together a little rate it by all the users who have experience with multiple PJs, where they rate it based on Picture, Noise, Color, etc. Then, you get an average of multiple users, get to see the different specs, and can focus on what is most important to you.
The real problem would be finding someone to do it. |
Yes, finding the people would be the problem. If it was just an all out poll letting people order PJs any way they like it would just be a mess. People would vote their own PJs higher than others, and people who didn't know how to set up a projector or had a problem with a certain model would rate it lower just because it broke down once or something, etc. And not like we could put rules up on how to vote and people don't read rules! (As can be seen by this thread - at least one or two people have asked what the lines are for when it's described right above the table).
Kal
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | It is really hard to put a definitive list though. SOmeone suggesting a scale of 1-10 on various aspects of a projector might be onto something, but that would start a 46 page thread arguing the scale of each projector as well.. |
Exactly right. It would turn into a huge argument. The original list was based on a list put together by Clarence over at AVS and that took quite some time to throw together too.
| Curt Palme wrote: | | Bottom line is, the final image I think is based more on the quality of hte setup/install/HT room more than anything else. |
I couldn't agree more. It's all about the cohesiveness of the setup. I like everything to be pretty much balanced myself. I always scratch my head when I see something like a G90 setup in a basement beside an exposed (noisy) furnace room and a $200 home-theater-in-a-box speaker setup. Or $50K on the audio side and a 480i video only projector. (I've seen both!)
| MikeEby wrote: | Ok here is slightly better example. Besides Michelle Pfeiffer is way easier on the eyes the old wrinkly Tommy Lee Jones.  Also keep in mind your right on top of the image and most likey not viewing it at 1.5 screen widths. |
I'm sure it's better in person Mike, but that shot looks really soft. Not much better than standard DVD to me. There's no detail. Could be the movie too though.
Kal
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Angus_rg
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 339
Location: A planet far, far away..... Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | Angus_rg wrote: | What would probably be even better is if we could put together a little rate it by all the users who have experience with multiple PJs, where they rate it based on Picture, Noise, Color, etc. Then, you get an average of multiple users, get to see the different specs, and can focus on what is most important to you.
The real problem would be finding someone to do it. |
Yes, finding the people would be the problem. If it was just an all out poll letting people order PJs any way they like it would just be a mess. People would vote their own PJs higher than others, and people who didn't know how to set up a projector or had a problem with a certain model would rate it lower just because it broke down once or something, etc. And not like we could put rules up on how to vote and people don't read rules! (As can be seen by this thread - at least one or two people have asked what the lines are for when it's described right above the table).
Kal |
True, but I think those voting their own PJs higher would even out since the diversity of PJ owners seems infinite. Inexperienced people voting would actually be good in some cases, since it would help the ease of set up category. The main issue I see is people who vote and haven't seen multiple PJs. I've only ever used a Marquee 8500, and since my only comparison is crap I've seen in BB and some expensive arse Runco DLPs that didn't look to be worth 1/10th of the price, I'd rate mine through the roof. However the sad realization that there is a lot more outside world outside of my sandbox would prevent me from voting. Others, probably a different story.
The only way you could do it would be to have some sort of gauge, maybe based on postings/ratings of what someone knows, which once again brings us back to square one, who the hell wants to spend the time to do something like this.
I typically have great ideas, but they tend to lose their greatness when you think about implementation.
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: |
I'm sure it's better in person Mike, but that shot looks really soft. Not much better than standard DVD to me. There's no detail. Could be the movie too though.
Kal |
I actually agree... Perhaps I need to go back to 1080i again and revaluate. All this is what has me thinking about a TVOne blend the bandwidth requirement drop like crazy. Maybe 1080p is just hype and I am sacrificing image quality it is all seems so subjective it’s very hard to get a definitive answer. The 1on1off test pattern probably tells all.
Mike
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | | All this is what has me thinking about a TVOne blend the bandwidth requirement drop like crazy. Maybe 1080p is just hype and I am sacrificing image quality it is all seems so subjective it’s very hard to get a definitive answer. The 1on1off test pattern probably tells all. |
The 1on1off test pattern is a worse case scenario though. Your picture can still look pretty good even if you don't get 100% on/off.
Kal
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: |
A 10PG (LC) is better than an XG LC even though the XG has more up to date circuitry and twice the bandwidth? (70Mhz vs 150Mhz). The 10PG may give you more scanlines because of bigger tubes but even NEC says the 10PG is a 1600x1200 (max) projector while the XG is a 2500x2000 (max) projector. A 10PG is just a regular PG with 9" tubes and LC no?
Kal |
This is marketing bull****. We have a thread on AVS where Kai's PG plus (and it's easy to convert a 10PG to a Plus), is showing up my XG LC. The bandwidth of an XG is about the same as all other NEC CRTs. It's also the thread where you can see the downside of MikeEby's running his XG at 1080p 72hz, compared to 1080i 96/72hz, his 1920 lines are blurred (but not field lines).
I'd swap my XG for a 10PG in a flash.
Also, nobody has mentioned the AKB line. I'd take the very small extra noise of an XG over the goddamn AKB line of a G70 anyday.
Do Marquees or Barcos have an AKB line? I've never seen a Marquee, and it's been 4 years since I've seen a Barco.
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: | | kal wrote: |
A 10PG (LC) is better than an XG LC even though the XG has more up to date circuitry and twice the bandwidth? (70Mhz vs 150Mhz). The 10PG may give you more scanlines because of bigger tubes but even NEC says the 10PG is a 1600x1200 (max) projector while the XG is a 2500x2000 (max) projector. A 10PG is just a regular PG with 9" tubes and LC no?
Kal |
This is marketing bull****. We have a thread on AVS where Kai's PG plus (and it's easy to convert a 10PG to a Plus), is showing up my XG LC. The bandwidth of an XG is about the same as all other NEC CRTs. It's also the thread where you can see the downside of MikeEby's running his XG at 1080p 72hz, compared to 1080i 96/72hz, his 1920 lines are blurred (but not field lines).
I'd swap my XG for a 10PG in a flash.
Also, nobody has mentioned the AKB line. I'd take the very small extra noise of an XG over the goddamn AKB line of a G70 anyday.
Do Marquees or Barcos have an AKB line? I've never seen a Marquee, and it's been 4 years since I've seen a Barco. |
Oh my...tell us how you really feel Mark!... 
I am really amazed at how nobody paid any attention to whole ranking until now. BTW what's an AKB line?
Edit...Nevermine...I looked it up.
Mike
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: | | I'd swap my XG for a 10PG in a flash. |
Ok guys, so in your mind, where would the 10PG fit in the list?
| Mark_A_W wrote: | | Also, nobody has mentioned the AKB line. I'd take the very small extra noise of an XG over the goddamn AKB line of a G70 anyday. |
Just mask it out and it's gone. It's not part of the active image area.
| Mark_A_W wrote: | | Do Marquees or Barcos have an AKB line? I've never seen a Marquee, and it's been 4 years since I've seen a Barco. |
No.
Kal
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Last edited by kal on Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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redcorvette_85
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 145
Location: Bothell, Washington
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:17 am Post subject: |
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I'll throw in my 2 cents on this, which can be discounted because I am also a 10pg owner. I think knocking it down to intermediate was wrong. I am nowhere near a pro or seen a ton of systems, but I have heard from many people that the 10pg is a very underrated projector when it was ranked in the low side of the high performance list and that it can compete well with the big dogs (at least in stock form), its just so rare that it never got a lot of hype. I have also been told by people much smarter than me that the bandwidth/lumen's ratings on the 10pg where marked down to low and the company never published correct specs. With that said I am not going to say it should be in the top category with the g90 and cine 9, some one with more experience should decide on that, but I think it ranks up there with the xg lc and the g70 or at least in the first tier where it was before . Its amazing how much this ranking change has stirred up the emotions 8)
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Angus_rg
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 339
Location: A planet far, far away..... Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | | kal wrote: |
I'm sure it's better in person Mike, but that shot looks really soft. Not much better than standard DVD to me. There's no detail. Could be the movie too though.
Kal |
I actually agree... Perhaps I need to go back to 1080i again and revaluate. All this is what has me thinking about a TVOne blend the bandwidth requirement drop like crazy. Maybe 1080p is just hype and I am sacrificing image quality it is all seems so subjective it’s very hard to get a definitive answer. The 1on1off test pattern probably tells all.
Mike |
If you believe the anti-hype, supposedly you can only tell the difference between i and p 2% of the time on a system capable of resolving both cleanly. If it looks sharper in i, chances are, when your butt is glued in the seat, you won't care about the whooping 3-5 minutes in an average movie.
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:58 am Post subject: |
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Kal,
I’m going to stick with p for right now, regardless of specs, test patterns & screen shots, I just prefer it. I’m tired of tweaking (well at least until next week).
I watched “No Country for Old Men” the other day I had more issue jumping out of my seat then staying glued in, felt like I needed to clean my shorts out a couple of times too, what a great flix! If I see any dude carrying a compressed air tank I’m running the other way!
Mike
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | Mark_A_W wrote: | | I'd swap my XG for a 10PG in a flash. |
Ok guys, so in your mind, were would the 10PG fit in the list?
| Mark_A_W wrote: | | Also, nobody has mentioned the AKB line. I'd take the very small extra noise of an XG over the goddamn AKB line of a G70 anyday. |
Just mask it out and it's gone. It's not part of the active image area.
| Mark_A_W wrote: | | Do Marquees or Barcos have an AKB line? I've never seen a Marquee, and it's been 4 years since I've seen a Barco. |
No.
Kal |
I dunno where a 10PG goes in the list, ask Tinman or Bomrat. I've never seen one (none here) but I would swap my XG for one.
You can't mask the AKB line on a LC tube. And it is clearly visible through a black velvet mask at the screen. I find them infuriating.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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I notice my AKB line about once a month in a black out scene, otherwise I'm completely unaware that it exist. It's very, very faint. I don't know why it's so prevalent on other G70s, but my guess is it's a setup issue.
Cliffy has owned all sorts of PJs, including G70s, XGs and a 10PG. Maybe he can chime in where he thinks the 10PG should rank.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | | draganm wrote: | | When was the last time you saw a G70 with even 10K on the clock, you won't because they get parted out before that point. |
I think I have over 14K on mine, and it still throws an awesome pic. I never would have thought that possible 6K ago. By now, I would have thought it would HAVE to be toast, but that's not the case.
So while at one time I would have agreed with you, I now know for a fact you're dead wrong. |
I last saw if with (I think) 12K on the clock. Still looked awesome as Phil says.
Personally, I think curt is nuts with his 10K hours. Maybe an NEC set up by the manual! But most will last 16K hours!
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A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Jesse S
Joined: 12 May 2007
Posts: 209
Location: Etobicoke
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | Here is the 1920 crop... Yes it is softer. But the same shot with an SD-DVD or 1080i would look much softer.
Mike |
This is from the 720p x264 encode and it still shows way more detail than you're getting.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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Man, that 1920 image shows it is WAAAAAY too soft. If anything, you have proven that you can't do 1080p with your current setup!
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Dave
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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Part of that softness could be because MikeEby's shot is a screenshot taken by camera and Jesse S's shot (if I'm not mistaken) is a frame grab taken directly from DVD. (Right?)
It's really hard to take good screenshots. Mine always look a lot softer too.
I have to agree on one thing however: MikeEby's shot is definitely not anywhere near what I'd call 'sharp' - especially for HD! As I stated earlier it doesn't even look any better than SD (which is obviously true looking at the SD screenshot provided above).
Kal
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | Part of that softness could be because MikeEby's shot is a screenshot taken by camera and Jesse S's shot (if I'm not mistaken) is a frame grab taken directly from DVD. (Right?)
It's really hard to take good screenshots. Mine always look a lot softer too.
I have to agree on one thing however: MikeEby's shot is definitely not anywhere near what I'd call 'sharp' - especially for HD! As I stated earlier it doesn't even look any better than SD (which is obviously true looking at the SD screenshot provided above).
Kal |
I assumed he posted it because it was representative of what he sees on the screen--it would not be logical to post it otherwise. This is the main reason I've never posted screen shots--I can't get them to look at all like what I see in real life.
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Dave
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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THe 10PG should be on par with a Barco 1209 I'd say. Definitely high end, but on the low end of high end..
Besides, the 10PG can be upgraded with a gutted 9 PG+ to a 10PG+ which adds better focusing and geometry. I haven't tried it, but Tinman and DOug Baisey swear by it.
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MYoung
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 369
Location: Madison, WI
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
I assumed he posted it because it was representative of what he sees on the screen--it would not be logical to post it otherwise. This is the main reason I've never posted screen shots--I can't get them to look at all like what I see in real life. |
What are you, Vulcan?
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