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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Person99"] | Spanky Ham wrote: |
Would it make you guys all happy if Kal put the G70 one line about the Onyx?  |
How about it goes XG, G70, then Onyx... 
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce 09 wrote: | I actually MISSED THAT !! You mean you were the one who f*ck*** it up worse than Kal ?
I didn't realize that , I would have suspected that only if the ONYX was second to the 909.
Bruce |
What are you talking about?
The list I argued for and just looked at has all of these better than the Onyx:
Barco 1209s
Marquee 9500LC
Marquee 9500LC Ultra
Sony G90
Barco Cine 9 / Reality 909
What you talkin' about Willis?
So, you thought the old list based primarily on tube size and manufacture date was better?!?!?!?
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Dave
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="greg_mitch"] | Person99 wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: |
Would it make you guys all happy if Kal put the G70 one line about the Onyx? |
How about it goes XG, G70, then Onyx... |
OK. But, it is hard to argue for an XG in a home theater. Audio is half the experience, and not being able to hear it is a bad thing. 
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Dave
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Yep. I changed the last half of the list yesterday with the help of Dave. For those that are not aware, there's a link to the list at the top of every forum page. See [ Best/Worst CRT Projectors List ]
I was never happy with the ranking of the top projectors. Ampro's were rated too high, some others were rated too low. The old list was mostly based on specs but specs only tell half of the story and the specs aren't always the most important thing when it comes to display a great HD image.
The list is still not perfect as there are other factors that come into play when choosing a PJ, but I think it's definitely closer now.
| Zebu Fellenz wrote: | Also I just noticed the lines in the ranking table that seem to break the projectors up into groups, anyone know what this is.
I'm confused  |
You're confused because you're skipping over the instructions! The lines have always been there. Read the intro at the top of the page for an explanation.
| jarseneau wrote: | It looks like the new criteria are max resolution and lumens while the older rankings were more strctly on tube size. As an NEC XG LC owner, "I like them new rankin's".  |
No, no numbers are used for the ranking, it's more how well the given PJ will actually look displaying content (especially HD material). For example: Things like quality of the circuitry in say, the 's' series of Barcos is taken into account as the 's' series is considerably better than the non-s series.
Before the list was mostly based on tube size and other numbers. Now the last 1/3 of the list is accurate (IMHO). The first half of the list still needs a lot of work but I think most people are interested in the upper half.
| Angus_rg wrote: | | I'd buy that, but the G70 and Cine 8 both have lower res then the Intermediate 9"ers. |
Resolution isn't everything. Constrast/depth/noise. All those are important too. Dave mentioned some of these in one of his earlier posts. I also agree that resolution is actually not one of the more important criteria.
| Angus_rg wrote: | | Also, have you done a comparison of your XG to a non-LC? I'm curious if the LC is worth the Hype. I've "heard" the AC is a tad sharper, but I have no point of reference. |
LC is worth the hype. I've seen a lot of AC and LC machines. It does make a difference. I have not seen the lack of sharpness in LC machines. I don't know who started that one but I think it's overblown.
| David_Web wrote: | "on/off CR
ANSI CR
Color Accuracy
Grayscale Tracking
Resolution
Cleanliness of image
Sharpness
Light output
"
Can't all this info be listed in the same chart?
Or at least in another shart. |
No. That would be impossible. How would you actually list things like "cleanliness of image" or "sharpness" or "accuracy of greyscale tracking" in a ranking table ??? I certainly have no idea.
| emdawgz1 wrote: | The new list still places the Cine9/onyx as number 1.
Is this thing Vaporware? I have never seen one, dont know anyone that has. Never seen one for sale. Wouldnt know how to get one. |
Actually you mean the Cine 9 / 909 (not onyx). You see them for sale every once and a while. Mike Parker had a bunch too. There are some other forum members with them here. Someone was looking for parts for one just this week.
| Person99 wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: |
I break it down real simply for the newbies: Any 8" set compared to any other 8" set will look very similar +/- 10%. |
I could not disagree more! The difference between my 1208/2 and my Zenith is not 10%!!! I can get visible scan lines at 960 on this PJ, no way could I do that on the 1208/2. This one is color filtered, so grass and skin tones look realistic and believable. The 1208/2 suffered from the (minor) noise in the image that all older barcos have. No way is this PJ only 10% better than other 8" machines. That is just plain crazy!!!
Also, a G70 is not just 10% better than a M8500! Come on! The G70 is way sharper, better colors, better shadow detail. That is silly to say 10% better! |
While I agree with you Dave, I think the key word here in Curt's statement is "newbies". People that don't know projection technology and quality won't notice much of a difference between 8" sets. I have a lot of regulars in my HT that have been visiting for years (100's of times). None of them noticed any difference when I upgraded from my Barco 800 to my Barco Cine 8 Onyx.
| Quote: | | So, we could score them on these dimensions than have a weighted rating, so the final score was something like image quality 65% of score, ergonomics 20% of the score, ease of set up 15%. Frankly, it you did this, the 1292 would fall even lower?!?!?!? |
I purposely don't want to being ergonomics and ease of setup into this as it doesn't factor into how good of a picture the projector can throw for an HD home theater. It's just too subjective and will cause even more confusion. People using the list should do extra research into the unit they're considering before buying it. For example, an XG LC machine throws a great image (I've seen many and used to own an XG). It's a noisy beast and a bitch to set up for newbies, but an experienced will likely find it EASIER to set up (I did) and may stick it in a hushbox. So why rate an XG lower just because newbies will have trouble with it?
| Bruce 09 wrote: | | First off a lot of 1208's Had p16 tubes the ONLY difference technically between yours is LC and that does not make up 10% of an OVERALL image difference. |
No, the 1208 has older circuitry that's a lot noiser. The 's' series of Barcos is a major step up in image quality from the previous non-'s' models as it has: Completely redesigned RGB signal path using high end RGB end stages, All new circuits are now surface mount devices (SMD) which improves signal quality a lot and the RGB input and switching boards are completely new.
| emdawgz1 wrote: | | If the 1209 is equal to the Runco DTV1100 |
No it isn't. The DTV1100 is a 1209s. The "S" is very important. Runco also adds tinted c-elements.
| Angus_rg wrote: | | Just curious, where would you rate a Marquee 8500 sporting some HD144/145s? |
Rating these projectors in 'stock' format is hard enough. Given that each of them can have mods done, that would be impossible to rate.
| David_Web wrote: | | Why not rate every pj from 1 to 10 in every category. That will be more useful when comparing a pj to another as every one hopefully knows what they want and need. |
Yes that would be. But who's seen all of these projectors and can rate them? You'd have to have one group of people doing it otherwise it's meaningless. The list is still highly subjective and note that projectors all within the same sub-group are more similar than different.
I'll just close off with this statement: For those of you that do NOT like the list, please re-organize it yourself and post it here and we'll all discuss it. Explain why you moved things around then we'll seriously consider it! This list is a work in progress and we need YOUR help, but just bitching that a certain projector should be higher or lower does absolutely nothing to help fine tune the list. I've received litterally dozens of emails and PMs over the years from people bitching about how the list is wrong but not one of them (other than Dave) have been able to provide an actual opinion as to why it's wrong. Bitch all you want, just be prepared to defend your position.
Kal
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Kal, fwiw i love the list. For a newbie its gives you some idea of where to start looking and you can use it to gauge price ranges.
Also, if anyone has a Cine9/909 in the NY,Mass, Conn, Pa, NJ, DE, MD, VA area, let me know. If its possible id love to take a trip and see one.
Thanks Kal, and Kurt!
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: |
| Person99 wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: |
I break it down real simply for the newbies: Any 8" set compared to any other 8" set will look very similar +/- 10%. |
I could not disagree more! The difference between my 1208/2 and my Zenith is not 10%!!! I can get visible scan lines at 960 on this PJ, no way could I do that on the 1208/2. This one is color filtered, so grass and skin tones look realistic and believable. The 1208/2 suffered from the (minor) noise in the image that all older barcos have. No way is this PJ only 10% better than other 8" machines. That is just plain crazy!!!
Also, a G70 is not just 10% better than a M8500! Come on! The G70 is way sharper, better colors, better shadow detail. That is silly to say 10% better! |
While I agree with you Dave, I think the key word here in Curt's statement is "newbies". People that don't know projection technology and quality won't notice much of a difference between 8" sets. I have a lot of regulars in my HT that have been visiting for years (100's of times). None of them noticed any difference when I upgraded from my Barco 800 to my Barco Cine 8 Onyx. |
I see where you are coming from. I still don't buy it. My wife can tell the Onyx is more than 10% better than the old 1208/2.
But, lets assume what you say is true. If people can't really tell the difference in image quality, why not just go buy a $600 LCD that is easy to put up and cheap. Why buy a CRT for twice as much? Why? Because you do care about image quality. If you care about image quality, then you can tell the difference between the different machines.
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Bruce 09 wrote: | I actually MISSED THAT !! You mean you were the one who f*ck*** it up worse than Kal ?
I didn't realize that , I would have suspected that only if the ONYX was second to the 909.
Bruce |
What are you talking about?
The list I argued for and just looked at has all of these better than the Onyx:
Barco 1209s
Marquee 9500LC
Marquee 9500LC Ultra
Sony G90
Barco Cine 9 / Reality 909
What you talkin' about Willis?
So, you thought the old list based primarily on tube size and manufacture date was better?!?!?!? |
This last post was simply a joke, I was razzing you and kal because of your obvious Bias towards your projectors
I have always thought the list was skewed But It never bothered me in the least, the fervor each person went into defending their own projector did ..
I DO think this list has some better changes than the last list did actually , But to quote what someone recently said "CRT's are more alike than different"
I think most experienced people don't put as much stock in the list as someone who has never seen a lot of different projectors does .
My problem is someone thinking that If they go and buy a cine8 onyx their pic is going to BLOW away ALL other 8"lc machines ( only using the onyx as an example) which is not the case .
Hell kal says specs are meaningless But Changed HIS projectors Specs, Zenith quoted them at 75, Kal rewrote the zenith specs to 120 If you are comfortable in your projectors abilities why change those meaningless numbers
| Quote: | I don't know how to argue with absurd statements. The ANSI CR on an LC machine is 50% better than on an AC machine. So, a 50% increase in performance equals a less than 10% improvement?!?!?
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Dave I agree I just am measuring % different than you. I think the visual advantage of LC over a AC is big but 50% in a room that will only take advantage of 20% of that improvement does not make a 10% improvement in the whole pic in my opinion, that's all .
I also agree with Ansi advantage of LC Hell I Wrapped MY ENTIRE room in the blackest Fabric I could find, including those shiny Speakers. My screen is on a black fabric wall and is frame less, suspended three inches out from the wall. This room takes full advantage of the LC advantage . BUT someone with a white ceiling or maybe a window at the end of a room and decides to Buy the cine8 LC (onyx) Over HIS same year, same condition cine 8 because it is 11 rungs up the ladder might be disappointed in the ACTUAL performance difference , That's all .
Bruce
Last edited by Bruce 09 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | I see where you are coming from. I still don't buy it. My wife can tell the Onyx is more than 10% better than the old 1208/2. |
My wife didn't. When I pointed out some things and did an A/B for her she then started to notice.
| Person99 wrote: | | But, lets assume what you say is true. If people can't really tell the difference in image quality, why not just go buy a $600 LCD that is easy to put up and cheap. Why buy a CRT for twice as much? Why? Because you do care about image quality. If you care about image quality, then you can tell the difference between the different machines. |
Most people DO go out and buy the cheap LCD projectors! That's why we're a dying breed here. I see what you mean here though - if you care about image quality you're going to get a CRT so if you're going to care about image quality you're likely going to notice the difference between the sets. Otherwise you wouldn't be looking at CRT to begin with.
So I think Curt's logic a bit flawed too since it doesn't make sense to take 100 'average' people and ask them if they notice a difference as the 'average' person isn't going to want CRT to begin with. All the average person reall notices is the large picture. Bigger is better. That's it.
I suppose there are some people however that have simply heard that CRT is the best and want it because of that, having never done A/B comparisons themselves to see if they actually notice a difference.
Kal
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | .
I'll just close off with this statement: For those of you that do NOT like the list, please re-organize it yourself and post it here and we'll all discuss it. Explain why you moved things around then we'll seriously consider it! This list is a work in progress and we need YOUR help, but just bitching that a certain projector should be higher or lower does absolutely nothing to help fine tune the list. I've received litterally dozens of emails and PMs over the years from people bitching about how the list is wrong but not one of them (other than Dave) have been able to provide an actual opinion as to why it's wrong. Bitch all you want, just be prepared to defend your position.
Kal |
I have an idea. Put the pjs in each category in a circle. Then no one can say theirs is better than anothers.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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I agree, Kal. We're enthusiasts here, so nuances matter. Incremental (or not so incremental) changes in color accuracy, ANSI contrast, or focus are important and should be considered.
I still say Dave did a hell of a job on the list.
SC
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | kal wrote: | .
I'll just close off with this statement: For those of you that do NOT like the list, please re-organize it yourself and post it here and we'll all discuss it. Explain why you moved things around then we'll seriously consider it! This list is a work in progress and we need YOUR help, but just bitching that a certain projector should be higher or lower does absolutely nothing to help fine tune the list. I've received litterally dozens of emails and PMs over the years from people bitching about how the list is wrong but not one of them (other than Dave) have been able to provide an actual opinion as to why it's wrong. Bitch all you want, just be prepared to defend your position.
Kal |
I have an idea. Put the pjs in each category in a circle. Then no one can say theirs is better than anothers. |
Yeah, that's a good idea. Nobody seems to read the instructions I posted ABOVE the table and simple assume that if a PJ is lower on the list then it's automatically better than everything above it.
The problem with grouping them is how do I display the specs?
If someone can figure out a way to make it appear that all projectors in the same sub-group are at the same 'level' but still show the specs, then I'm all ears.
Kal
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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Add another row to the table. Put the group names in that row with an HTML table rowspan element for the name column.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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I could build a wicked-ass Flash piece with specs in the rollovers. Groups could be color-coded and all the data could load from an external XML file for easy editing. That might be a fun little project.
SC
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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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10PG is clearly misranked...it would blow the doors off everything in its category...
It's also definitely better than an XG...no question about it.
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| benareeno wrote: | 10PG is clearly misranked...it would blow the doors off everything in its category...
It's also definitely better than an XG...no question about it. |
Still have the 10pg for sale I see. 
Bruce
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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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perhaps...but that's not why I spoke up about it...it IS misranked.
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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If the Barco s series is such a step up, why's the 808s listed lower than the 1208? Do all 1208s have newer signal circuity that makes a vanilla 1208 look better than an 808s?
I remember someone (It might even have been person99, actually) tell me on the other forum that the 808s will be sharper than the 1208 if they're set up well. Presumably the colors / etc are comparable?
In other news my recommendation for top spot is, of course, the 808s. My justification is that it is the projector I own.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Add another row to the table. Put the group names in that row with an HTML table rowspan element for the name column. |
You lost me there Dave. I understand the terminology, I just don't understand what you're getting at exactly. Can you give me a simple mockup in a [ code ] [/ code ] block of text with a simple example?
| ecrabb wrote: | | I could build a wicked-ass Flash piece with specs in the rollovers. Groups could be color-coded and all the data could load from an external XML file for easy editing. That might be a fun little project. |
Interesting idea, but would be a nightmare for me to manage if I ever had to make a change.
| benareeno wrote: | | 10PG is clearly misranked...it would blow the doors off everything in its category...It's also definitely better than an XG...no question about it. |
A 10PG (LC) is better than an XG LC even though the XG has more up to date circuitry and twice the bandwidth? (70Mhz vs 150Mhz). The 10PG may give you more scanlines because of bigger tubes but even NEC says the 10PG is a 1600x1200 (max) projector while the XG is a 2500x2000 (max) projector. A 10PG is just a regular PG with 9" tubes and LC no?
| perisoft wrote: | | If the Barco s series is such a step up, why's the 808s listed lower than the 1208? Do all 1208s have newer signal circuity that makes a vanilla 1208 look better than an 808s? |
It isn't! Read the notes at the top! They just needed to be listed somehow and this is how it came out....
The note at the top says:
| Quote: | The list is split into three major groups: Entry-Level, Intermediate, and High Performance CRT projectors. Two projectors in the same major group should be considered similar in performance.
The major groups are further split into sub-groups. Projectors in the same sub-group should be considered as nearly identical in performance. The weight you as an individual place on specific items (i.e. size, fan noise, colour filtering, brightness, availability of parts, etc.) will be far more important than the sub-group rankings that are listed here. In fact, personal choices could easily slide a projector up or down 5-10 notches if you're particularly fussy about something! |
Kal
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:07 am Post subject: |
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It’s odd..everyone that had their projector lowered seems to be pissed...The ones that had their rating raised seem to be delighted...I wonder if there is a correlation? Frankly I don't care..I think I have the best 8" projector ever made. I don't care where it is on the list.
Mike
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:21 am Post subject: |
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Ok...I read whole thing...Now I'm a little pissed. I don't like this statement.
"* While the projectors marked with an asterisk are able to sync to a 1080p signal, the image will most likely be It is best to use 720p or 1080i on these projectors (especially true for those in the Entry-Level category). As mentioned previously, manufacturer specifications do not necessarily reflect real world resolving capability."
While I agree with Kal that screen shots should not be used as judgement of true image qualtity I would hardly call this 1080p 72Hz screen shot from my XG "too soft or smeared to be usable".
Mike
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Last edited by MikeEby on Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:31 am; edited 2 times in total
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