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jarseneau
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 323
Location: WI
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Angus_rg wrote: |
Also, have you done a comparison of your XG to a non-LC? I'm curious if the LC is worth the Hype. I've "heard" the AC is a tad sharper, but I have no point of reference. |
| Person99 wrote: | | Yes it is. Way less halos and better ANSI CR which gives a better depth to the image. Also, the LC machines I put in the top have P16 tubes. So yes, a 180 tubed LC machine will be marginally (not really noticable on content) less sharp than its AC counterpart, but a P16 LC will be crazy sharper than a 180 tubed machine. |
I agree with Dave. The blacks are just infinite with the LC. For sharpness, I will say it was harder to the get optical focus right in the corners/edges with the LC HD18N lenses compared to the AC 145's due to larger interaction between the main and edge focus.
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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If the root cause of the spot burn problem in the G90 isn't resoved (if the problem does exists). Frankly I would think the G90 should be downgraded.
A set that can take out $5100 in tubes with no warning has no place in my theater, even with the fine picture they throw.
Mike
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Ask Phil if he'd give up his smooth nice G70 image for a 1209 image, I bet he wouldn't. I wouldn't trade my PJ outright for a 1209.
The 1209 will do SLIGHTLY more resolution than the G70. But, to get that resolution, you will sacrifice alot as the colors on the 1209 will be worse and the image will have more noise in it. |
Doesn't mean much !! Does he like red heads or blonds ? How many hours was on the 1209? WHO SET UP THE 1209?
Did they Know how to focus a projector with such limited adjustment? Were the coloured C elements on the projector? Did you do a 1080p test between them after they were calibrated what one resolved 1080p BETTER?
Why does sharpness mean so much between p16 and 180 tubes but is dismissed between 9" and YOUR 8" come into play ?
How can a 1209 with hqf 900 lenses and colour C elements Have worse colours than a g70 Which incidentally has "better" (accurate ) colours than a g90 . ( Just to get them involved ) 
WHY is the REAL Cine8 11 positions back from the (cine8/onyx /zenith/my favorite) projector ?
| Quote: | | I could not disagree more! The difference between my 1208/2 and my Zenith is not 10%!!! I can get visible scan lines at 960 on this PJ, no way could I do that on the 1208/2. This one is color filtered, so grass and skin tones look realistic and believable. The 1208/2 suffered from the (minor) noise in the image that all older barcos have. No way is this PJ only 10% better than other 8" machines. That is just plain crazy!!! |
I think less than 10% as well .
First off a lot of 1208's Had p16 tubes the ONLY difference technically between yours is LC and that does not make up 10% of an OVERALL image difference.
IN fact unless you have THE ROOM to truly take advantage of the Ansi improvement in LC, the advantage is completely lost.
A complete True Black Hole will one of the biggest improvements in Ansi performance BAR NONE .
Dave I guarantee you that if you and kal went on a field trip together into a room with ALL the TOP 8" LC units set up by pros that knew how to set up each of their PET machines, you guys could not tell the difference between them !!
Beyond that, the biggest difference between projectors in the same class ( in the same condition ) is setup and color calibration Period.
| Quote: | | Also, a G70 is not just 10% better than a M8500! Come on! The G70 is way sharper, better colors, better shadow detail. That is silly to say 10% better! |
Dave have you seen a NEW re tubed 8500 LC ultra with coloured C elements compared by someone who knew how to set it up directly to a g70 ? Have you tested the ansi contrast, or Full on off between them ? have you done Bandwidth tests between a g70 and 8500 Ultra ? Have you checked the primaries between the two How much different is the Coloured elements between them ????
The difference between the TRUE top ten projectors is NOT 10% in an overall image, Period .
Bruce
Last edited by Bruce 09 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:08 pm; edited 3 times in total
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David_Web
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 418
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Why not rate every pj from 1 to 10 in every category. That will be more useful when comparing a pj to another as every one hopefully knows what they want and need.
Someone might value ease of setup more than ultimate sharpness and might tip the balance to another pj that in the end might give better pic as it was set up better.
The "best worst" chart will swing a lot depending on preference and needs.
Suggestion for categories:
Tube sharpness
Contrast (just a 20,000:1 number here)
ANSI (ansi cr here)
Brightness. (in lumens)
Color accuracy
ghosting and halo (how good is the pj to avoid this type of artifact)
Noise (how annoying is the sound. a higher db low frequency hum might be better then a low db raspy noise)
Focus (can you get a good focus on the entire pic)
Ease of setup/use (can I get a good pic without low level knowledge and can I set it up without extensive knowledge how to not damage the pj)
Tweakability (If I read up more can I expect to be able to tweak the pj further, and how easy will it be)
Screen size (how big can I usually go in a normal setup. (screen width))
Well you get the idea. Some points might be highly subjective but at the same time highly useful.
If not on the chat page, could this be implemented on the individual model page. (the pages that the chart links to)
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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If the 1209 is equal to the Runco DTV1100 then its DEFINITELY better than a g70.
The 70 is really nice but i have never seen color accuracy, and black levels, a more lifelike picture than the g90 and the dtv 1100.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Also, a G70 is not just 10% better than a M8500! Come on! The G70 is way sharper, better colors, better shadow detail. That is silly to say 10% better! |
Dave if your responsible for the new list then I will say good job and that it's an improvement over the old one. However I am going to agree with Curt and Bruce and say the above comment is over the top. I have both 8500AC here(including mine with MP mods) as well as G70 and while the G70 has it's advanatges it's not more than 10% improvement over a stock 8500AC with HD-145's. I would also choose an 8500Lc with MP mods over a pick up truck full of G70s, no matter how nice or or low hour they were.
In my 5 years experience with the marquee's the biggest problem i'm seeing is a soft focus issue from unserviced machines with tens of thousands of hours. When was the last time you saw a G70 with even 10K on the clock, you won't because they get parted out before that point.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| emdawgz1 wrote: | If the 1209 is equal to the Runco DTV1100 then its DEFINITELY better than a g70.
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that's the problem with Barco's, they did a sh*tty job of differentiating between models. The 1100 is a 1209S, quite a step-up from a plain 1209
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, this is an interesting list. Is this going to be like the original thread, which was like 40 pages?
I understand where Dave is coming from, but I am going to lean more towards Bruce. I asked Scott one time what the difference between pjs using the same lens/tube combo would be. He replied that the difference would not be that great at all. I can't believe that a new VDC 8500LC would be ranked that far below the other 8" LCs. Before you say anything about new pjs Dave, I will ask which year do you draw the line? Also, I know what you are saying about colors, but C element changes are pretty straight forward and relatively inexpensive. Finally, Tinman has a 10PG. I believe he has seen or owned a couple of XGs and said he prefers the 10 (correct me if I am wrong Marc:)).
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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I forgot to add the issue with Zenith. I thought that the Zenith had limited corner focusing ability. To me, that would put it below the G70 and the XGs. Of course, I know it is yours and Kal's list.
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So, please share the thoughts of why you think the noisy 1292 is more desirable in a home theater setting than a G70. |
I don't Dave. In fact I am not sure why someone would put that in a theater , Unless it was the only projectors in their country and I could buy them chap sell them high and make a crt set up video showing them off (while turning the camera's sound off ) Make twenty grand and buy a ruby and get out of CRT, that would be The only reason I would own one at this late in the game
Bruce
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce 09 wrote: | | Quote: | Ask Phil if he'd give up his smooth nice G70 image for a 1209 image, I bet he wouldn't. I wouldn't trade my PJ outright for a 1209.
The 1209 will do SLIGHTLY more resolution than the G70. But, to get that resolution, you will sacrifice alot as the colors on the 1209 will be worse and the image will have more noise in it. |
Doesn't mean much !! Does he like red heads or blonds ? |
It was an anecdotal example to rate desirablility. How many older barcos have you seen with no noise in the picture? I've seen ones with 1500 hours on them and they have noise in the picture?!?!?
| Bruce 09 wrote: | | Why does sharpness mean so much between p16 and 180 tubes but is dismissed between 9" and YOUR 8" come into play ? |
It is not dismissed. The P16s late model machines (which have better signal paths also) are damn close to the same sharpness as the old 9" machines. I've seen it over and over.
| Bruce 09 wrote: | | How can a 1209 with hqf 900 lenses and colour C elements Have worse colours than a g70 Which incidentally has "better" (accurate ) colours than a g90 . ( Just to get them involved ) |
An out of the box 1209 does not have these.
| Bruce 09 wrote: | | WHY is the REAL Cine8 11 positions back from the (cine8/onyx /zenith/my favorite) projector ? |
Many Cine8s have 180 tubes. They are also all AC.
| Bruce 09 wrote: | | Quote: | | I could not disagree more! The difference between my 1208/2 and my Zenith is not 10%!!! I can get visible scan lines at 960 on this PJ, no way could I do that on the 1208/2. This one is color filtered, so grass and skin tones look realistic and believable. The 1208/2 suffered from the (minor) noise in the image that all older barcos have. No way is this PJ only 10% better than other 8" machines. That is just plain crazy!!! |
I think less than 10% as well . |
I don't know how to argue with absurd statements. The ANSI CR on an LC machine is 50% better than on an AC machine. So, a 50% increase in performance equals a less than 10% improvement?!?!? WTF? Also, green grass as opposed to green yellow grass is a less than 10% improvement--OK Why don't you try looking at the color points of an non-filtered machine vs. a filtered machine. The non-filtered machine is way more than 10% off! Let me have some of what you are smoking?!?!?
Not only that, you seem to be one that mostly cares soooo much about resolution. A P16 machine will resolve more than 10% above a 180 machine. So there you go again, a more than 10% measurable improvement is a less than 10% improvement in your book. Man, those be some good drugs you got!
| Bruce 09 wrote: | | First off a lot of 1208's Had p16 tubes the ONLY difference technically between yours is LC and that does not make up 10% of an OVERALL image difference. |
Where are you finding these mythical 1208 machines? The 1208 and 1208/2 ALL had 180s. The 1208s and 1208s/2 are different machines!
| Bruce 09 wrote: | | IN fact unless you have THE ROOM to truly take advantage of the Ansi improvement in LC, the advantage is completely lost. |
How can you rank anything than if you are also going to rank rooms and set up skills?!?!?!?
| Bruce 09 wrote: | | A complete True Black Hole will one of the biggest improvements in Ansi performance BAR NONE . |
And an LC machine in that room will be 50% better than the AC machine in that room.
| Bruce 09 wrote: | | Dave I guarantee you that if you and kal went on a field trip together into a room with ALL the TOP 8" LC units set up by pros that knew how to set up each of their PET machines, you guys could not tell the difference between them !! |
And Kal has always said that machines in the same group are comparable and the order means nothing. So, yes, a G70, NEC XG LC, and Cine 8 Onyx should be considered about equal.
| Bruce 09 wrote: | | Beyond that, the biggest difference between projectors in the same class ( in the same condition ) is setup and color calibration Period. |
I agree, but we are arguing which ones are in the same class.
| Bruce 09 wrote: | | Quote: | | Also, a G70 is not just 10% better than a M8500! Come on! The G70 is way sharper, better colors, better shadow detail. That is silly to say 10% better! |
Dave have you seen a NEW re tubed 8500 LC ultra with coloured C elements compared by someone who knew how to set it up directly to a g70 ? |
[/QUOTE]
Again, an M8500LC with C elements IS NOT an M8500. Jeese, what is so hard to understand here. Yes, an M8500LC with colored elements will be closer to a G70 than an M8500. Maybe within 10%. It will still not be as sharp (and yes I've seen them with new new 180s) and it will still crush black more than the G70.
Have you tested the ansi contrast, or Full on off between them ? have you done Bandwidth tests between a g70 and 8500 Ultra ? Have you checked the primaries between the two How much different is the Coloured elements between them ????
| Bruce 09 wrote: | The difference between the TRUE top ten projectors is NOT 10% in an overall image, Period .
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You seem to have missed the point (again). Curt's statements was that EVERY SINGLE 8" machine that exists has a less than 10% varience in performance. That is false. There is way more than a 10% difference between a 1208 or 1208/2 and a Cine 8 Onyx. I can measure more than 10% difference just in color accuracy and ANSI CR!!!
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A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | I forgot to add the issue with Zenith. I thought that the Zenith had limited corner focusing ability. To me, that would put it below the G70 and the XGs. Of course, I know it is yours and Kal's list. |
I think it has some advantages over the XG (namely noise). It and the G70 are pretty close. A mildly curved screen can make the corner focus just as good as the G70 and the XG. So, yep, they are all pretty close.
Would it make you guys all happy if Kal put the G70 one line about the Onyx?
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Person99"] | Curt Palme wrote: |
Also, a G70 is not just 10% better than a M8500! Come on! The G70 is way sharper, better colors, better shadow detail. That is silly to say 10% better!
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Sorry, I should have added (heck, I probably even told you this example!  )
Put 100 non technical people in a big room with every make model and version of 8" set displaying the same image on the same size screen. All tubes and chassis are in the same shape, and each set is set up by a factory tech. Get each person to point out the best and worst image.
I don't think you'll get a clear winner and loser. I think the spread will be pretty even.
Then put 100 techs will all sorts of test discs in the same room. I'll bet the stats would change.
AS soon as the techs show up, no matter what, they have experience, and they will be biased.
If I were to choose one set to get for myself, and assuming all of my technical skills would disappear along with my massive parts collection and assume for a sec that I could do nothing more than swap boards as many of my custoemrs do, I personally would NOT choose a G70. I'd choose a Marquee or Barco due to ease of service and setup ability.
For the techy that is hooked on specs, I'd suggest the G70.
So there. 
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Curt Palme"] | Person99 wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: |
Also, a G70 is not just 10% better than a M8500! Come on! The G70 is way sharper, better colors, better shadow detail. That is silly to say 10% better!
|
Sorry, I should have added (heck, I probably even told you this example! )
Put 100 non technical people in a big room with every make model and version of 8" set displaying the same image on the same size screen. All tubes and chassis are in the same shape, and each set is set up by a factory tech. Get each person to point out the best and worst image.
I don't think you'll get a clear winner and loser. I think the spread will be pretty even. |
Put 100 people in a room with a G70 and a crappy LCD projector and you'll get the same results. What's your point?
And yes you have, on more than one occasion.
| Curt Palme wrote: | If I were to choose one set to get for myself, and assuming all of my technical skills would disappear along with my massive parts collection and assume for a sec that I could do nothing more than swap boards as many of my custoemrs do, I personally would NOT choose a G70. I'd choose a Marquee or Barco due to ease of service and setup ability.
For the techy that is hooked on specs, I'd suggest the G70.
So there. |
Yes, this is what makes this so tough to rank outright. Someone might reasonbly choose a 1208/2 over a G70 for the ease of setup, service, and low low fan noise. But, it is hard to say that the 1208/2 is a "better" machine. YOu still have to say the G70 is better.
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A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Person99"] | Bruce 09 wrote: | The list is less accurate and more subjective now than it was before, the onyx being the best example.
Bruce |
[quote="Person99"] | Quote: | Also, color accuracy can be measured. How is that subjective. A G70 is much more accurate than any non-filtered machine. How is that subjective?
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I realize the importance of colour accuracy, that is why I bought high end dedicated CRT Colorimeter.
I just was asking YOU how YOU came to your CONCLUSIONS on accuracy between projectors than effectively have the same colour filtering ??
I also don't think an 8500 should be compared to a LC machine to say Sony is better than Eectrohome .
Barco LC looks better than Barco non LC.
The subjective component is really how do you rank things. I'm attempting to use the generally sense of priorities in the industry. Given that, resolution is waaaaay more important than everything else.
| Person99 wrote: | | Home Theater magazine just did a shoot out where the way better Pioneer 768p plasma was put up against a field of 1080p plasmas. It was the best display. Why? Because it beat the 1080p displays on EVERY picture quality parameter than resolution. I think they were correct on this on. |
I agree as well .
I actually agree with a lot of what you say Dave, But you have such an absolute black or white way of wording things, that I make a point of trying to show a different point of view. Because Phil bought an OLD 1209 and does not know how to set it up properly does not mean anything that should be used as proof.
I don't want to offend you Dave but some of the HUGE differences you mention, sound a little like Gary with his exaggerations
I have seen every CRT projector in the top ten list , in many configurations, Industrial, Commercial, Home Theater and I can tell you the BEST CRT setup men in the world are not in these forums. I have been to places where they Love the 909s . Others Who Have 9500ulta's set up so well you would be speechless. The TRUE CRT pros, have their preferences and KNOW how to get the most out of their favorite Machines , which sometimes is all it takes to make one machine better than the other .
Bruce
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papalek
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1536
Location: Longs SC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Where is the AmPro 4300?
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My current list of PJ's AmPro 1 1/2-4600,4200, 1/2-3600,2600.
I do love my AmPro's
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce 09 wrote: |
I realize the importance of colour accuracy, that is why I bought high end dedicated CRT Colorimeter.
I just was asking YOU how YOU came to your CONCLUSIONS on accuracy between projectors than effectively have the same colour filtering ?? |
If I gave that impression, I aplogize. I was only comparing non-filtered machines to filtered machines. So, a G70 would have better colors than a 1209. If they are both filtered, then it is the electronics that will decide accuracy and grayscale tracking--but I agree they will be very close.
| Bruce 09 wrote: | | I also don't think an 8500 should be compared to a LC machine to say Sony is better than Eectrohome |
Again, I never was attempting to say "Sony is better than Electrohome". I was saying the Sony G70 is better than the air coupled 8500--period. And I'll argue that is true.
| Bruce 09 wrote: | | I actually agree with a lot of what you say Dave, But you have such an absolute black or white way of wording things, that I make a point of trying to show a different point of view. |
Yeah, I get a bit passionate.
| Bruce 09 wrote: | | Because Phil bought an OLD 1209 and does not know how to set it up properly does not mean anything that should be used as proof. |
Again, that was anecdotal. Phil bought a 1200. Locally we have a 1209/2 (note--not an "s"). I was only throwing out the Phil thing as an example. Hell, he might trade his G70 for the 1209/2 (I doubt it, but maybe).
| Bruce 09 wrote: | | I don't want to offend you Dave but some of the HUGE differences you mention, sound a little like Gary with his exaggerations |
Fair enough. I'll give you this one. 
| Bruce 09 wrote: | I have seen every CRT projector in the top ten list , in many configurations, Industrial, Commercial, Home Theater and I can tell you the BEST CRT setup men in the world are not in these forums. I have been to places where they Love the 909s . Others Who Have 9500ulta's set up so well you would be speechless. The TRUE CRT pros, have their preferences and KNOW how to get the most out of their favorite Machines , which sometimes is all it takes to make one machine better than the other .
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This is true. But then what are you saying--there should be no ranking? Or, a different ranking?
I was assuming that the person doing to set up would be the same. I think few (maybe no one) that buys a Quee is going to get the best quee set up guy in the world to do theirs, same for a sony buyer. Most likely they or a friend will do the set up, or a calibrator will do the set up.
So yeah, if you are going to have Mike Parker do you set up, he'll probably get better results with a Quee than a Sony. If I do the set up, I'll get better results with a Barco then an NEC. But, generally speaking, I was trying to leave the "uber-calibrators" of specific models out of the ranking.
Feel free to propose another ranking! Kal is always inviting it. I gave him my proposed rankings and my arguments for why I put them the way I did. You rankings may be better with better arguments. Don't just be a nay-sayer, give us your point of view!!!!
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Feel free to propose another ranking! Kal is always inviting it. I gave him my proposed rankings and my arguments for why I put them the way I did. You rankings may be better with better arguments. Don't just be a nay-sayer, give us your point of view!!!! |
Nah.. Don't give a sh*t enough really to I do know my list would be the best though , Besides as YOU know Dave it is a lot easier to be a critic than to actually do !
How long would it last if I put the cine8/LC only ONE space above the cine8 AC instead of ELEVEN places ?
Bruce
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce 09 wrote: | | Quote: | | Feel free to propose another ranking! Kal is always inviting it. I gave him my proposed rankings and my arguments for why I put them the way I did. You rankings may be better with better arguments. Don't just be a nay-sayer, give us your point of view!!!! |
Nah.. Don't give a sh*t enough really to I do know my list would be the best though , Besides as YOU know Dave it is a lot easier to be a critic than to actually do !
Bruce |
Yeah, but I actually DID this time!!!!
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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I actually MISSED THAT !! You mean you were the one who f*ck*** it up worse than Kal ?
I didn't realize that , I would have suspected that only if the ONYX was second to the 909.
Bruce
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