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Angus_rg
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 339
Location: A planet far, far away..... Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: CRT Projector Rankings Change and Mass Confusion |
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I was curious to see where my Marquee sat in comparison to some of the nicer LC 8" models and saw the rankings have drastically changed.
Now, many 9" PJs are considered intermediate, and many 8"LCs are High Performance.
Why did things change? Is a G70 really better then a Sony 1292(ignoring sound) and ampro 4600/4200? I've been considering modding or upgrading to a new PJ, but it almost seems that for the price of many G70's out there, its hard to believe they've nocked off 7 of the 12 9" projectors.
Any thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated.
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Zebu Fellenz
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2567
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Nice to see my machine is now high end 
My first guess is that it's a mistake, I for one don't believe that my G70 is better than a Barco 1209
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Zebu Fellenz
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2567
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Also I just noticed the lines in the ranking table that seem to break the projectors up into groups, anyone know what this is.
I'm confused 
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Angus_rg
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 339
Location: A planet far, far away..... Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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Man, I was worried I was the only one. I was baffled the page said updated March 20th, and no one commented. I thought I was taking stupidder pills.
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jarseneau
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 323
Location: WI
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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It looks like the new criteria are max resolution and lumens while the older rankings were more strctly on tube size. As an NEC XG LC owner, "I like them new rankin's". 
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Jerry
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Oh the humanity!
Mike
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Angus_rg
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 339
Location: A planet far, far away..... Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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I'd buy that, but the G70 and Cine 8 both have lower res then the Intermediate 9"ers.
Also, have you done a comparison of your XG to a non-LC? I'm curious if the LC is worth the Hype. I've "heard" the AC is a tad sharper, but I have no point of reference.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: Rankings Change and Mass Confusion |
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| Angus_rg wrote: | I was curious to see where my Marquee sat in comparison to some of the nicer LC 8" models and saw the rankings have drastically changed.
Now, many 9" PJs are considered intermediate, and many 8"LCs are High Performance.
Why did things change? Is a G70 really better then a Sony 1292(ignoring sound) and ampro 4600/4200? I've been considering modding or upgrading to a new PJ, but it almost seems that for the price of many G70's out there, its hard to believe they've nocked off 7 of the 12 9" projectors.
Any thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated. |
Blame me!!!!
Kal is always saying everyone complains about the rankings but never comes up with anything better.
I think of few of them can be tweaked, but I would argue it is closer now.
Here is my reasoning, there are many aspects to image quality which include:
on/off CR
ANSI CR
Color Accuracy
Grayscale Tracking
Resolution
Cleanliness of image
Sharpness
Light output
To a lesser degree, there are also ergonomic issues.
Given this, yes, a well set up color filtered, good electronics LCed P16 tubed 8" has an overall better image than an older weaker 9".
So, lets compare a G70 to a 1209 (which is a comparison I've done). The 1209 will have a noisier image (noise easily viewable from 1.5x screen width and further). The 1209 will have less accurate colors. The 1209 actually will not have much more resolving power than the G70. So yes, I'd have to give the win to the G70.
For those of you who have not seen a well set up late model 8" with P16 tubes, you guys just don't understand how good these tubes are! When I switched from my 1208/2 to the Zenith Pro 1200X, even my wife was amazed at the picture quality improvement.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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David_Web
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 418
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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"on/off CR
ANSI CR
Color Accuracy
Grayscale Tracking
Resolution
Cleanliness of image
Sharpness
Light output
"
Can't all this info be listed in the same chart?
Or at least in another shart.
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Angus_rg
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 339
Location: A planet far, far away..... Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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LYNCH HIM!!!!!
Seriously, good to know. Just curious, where would you rate a Marquee 8500 sporting some HD144/145s?
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Angus_rg wrote: | | I'd buy that, but the G70 and Cine 8 both have lower res then the Intermediate 9"ers. |
Resolution is only one component. But, a P16 tubed machine does not really have much lower resolution than the intermediate 9". This is why they are the crazy bargains of the home theater world! Comparing mine to a 1209/2 (don't get mad at me Mike  ), mine is sharper at 1080i than the 1209/2 at 1080p (problem is you see the scan lines on mine). With a quality source, the difference at 1080p really is minor. I would rather have some visible scan lines and crazy sharpness, so I run mine at 1080i, but at 1080p it is very close, and mine has less noise in the image, so really an overall better picture.
I cannot stress enough the huge difference is sharpness and resolving power between the 180s and the P16s.
But, again, resolution is not everything. This actually cracks me up. This is all the digi boys care about. I just compared a Samsung SP-H710AE (720p DLP designed with the help of Joe Kane) to an Epson 1080UB (1080p LCD with dynamic IRIS).
The Samsung was so vastly superior it was not funny. Better (more accurate) colors, better grayscale, way more depth and "pop" to the image. The LCDs have crappy panel contrast, so their ANSI contrast is less than half that of the Sammy, so even with less resolution, the Sammy had a more realistic image. On low APL scenes, no contest, the Sammy was much better, the epson have the "LCD haze" over the image. The only thing the epson beat the sammy on was actual resolution (though the sammy actually looked just a detailed viewed from SMPTE reference distance) and fade to black.
| Angus_rg wrote: | | Also, have you done a comparison of your XG to a non-LC? I'm curious if the LC is worth the Hype. I've "heard" the AC is a tad sharper, but I have no point of reference. |
Yes it is. Way less halos and better ANSI CR which gives a better depth to the image. Also, the LC machines I put in the top have P16 tubes. So yes, a 180 tubed LC machine will be marginally (not really noticable on content) less sharp than its AC counterpart, but a P16 LC will be crazy sharper than a 180 tubed machine.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Guys, it's pretty subjective anyways.
Going to what Dave said above between the G70 and 1209, I'd agree with what Dave said,... but... the 9" tubes DO have the ability to resolve more than the G70, you can also see that in the image. While the 1209 doesn't have Scheimpflug, you can get decent sharpness using those thin brass washers to shim the tubes, plus the Barco is easier to service.
I break it down real simply for the newbies: Any 8" set compared to any other 8" set will look very similar +/- 10%. Start putting up test patterns and you will start seeing the differences, but who watches test patterns all day?
Newbies are usually more concerned with fan noise, size, ease of setup anyways. Once they get to be more seasoned CRTers, THEN the niggly details as to bandwidth, 100 points of convergence, sharpness etc come into play more than with a first time CRT owner.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Angus_rg wrote: | LYNCH HIM!!!!!
Seriously, good to know. Just curious, where would you rate a Marquee 8500 sporting some HD144/145s? |
This is where it gets tough!!!! You really need to rank unmodified machines. People "in the know", know they can make it better.
For instance, I've seen a stock 8500--frankly, I'm not impressed. Then I've seen mods (MP in this case) in the machine, and there was a very noticeable difference. It got just a little sharper, but the color saturation and shadow details were noticeably improved along with a reduction in image noise. Throw some color filter lenses on there also, and now you are talking.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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The new list still places the Cine9/909 reality as number 1.
Is this thing Vaporware? I have never seen one, dont know anyone that has. Never seen one for sale. Wouldnt know how to get one.
Is it like the Yeti, or its North American cousin Sasquatch????
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Last edited by emdawgz1 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Angus_rg
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 339
Location: A planet far, far away..... Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Dave. Saying that really clears things up is an understatement.
Also don't get me started on DLP. I swear I don't understand why they do so poorly in comparison to LCD/Plasmas sales. Could be that TV size is how I mask my inferiority complex, and you can't touch DLP price/size ratio. That, and the diagnol pix make a lot more sense too me. A 1080p circle drawn with pyramid building blocks seems silly, but I digress......
Of course, I still think my 6 year old 1080i 60" CRT looks better then most, despite the green tube withering away. I guess that's probably why I'm here.....
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Dave. Resolution simply isn't a good measure by which to rank these machines - especially not as the SOLE metric and ESPECIALLY not for HT use. It might be a different story if we were using these machines for PowerPoint presentations...
In order of priority for most of us I think, Contrast ratio, color accuracy, THEN resolution and sharpness makes a lot of sense. Also, as somebody who has directly A-B compared (as in switching back and forth) a non-LC 1271 and an LC G70 in my own room on my own screen, it makes a whole lot of sense to me to group most of the LC machines together at the top of the list.
Nice work, Dave!
SC
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: |
Going to what Dave said above between the G70 and 1209, I'd agree with what Dave said,... but... the 9" tubes DO have the ability to resolve more than the G70, you can also see that in the image. While the 1209 doesn't have Scheimpflug, you can get decent sharpness using those thin brass washers to shim the tubes, plus the Barco is easier to service. |
Ask Phil if he'd give up his smooth nice G70 image for a 1209 image, I bet he wouldn't. I wouldn't trade my PJ outright for a 1209.
The 1209 will do SLIGHTLY more resolution than the G70. But, to get that resolution, you will sacrifice alot as the colors on the 1209 will be worse and the image will have more noise in it.
| Curt Palme wrote: | | I break it down real simply for the newbies: Any 8" set compared to any other 8" set will look very similar +/- 10%. |
I could not disagree more! The difference between my 1208/2 and my Zenith is not 10%!!! I can get visible scan lines at 960 on this PJ, no way could I do that on the 1208/2. This one is color filtered, so grass and skin tones look realistic and believable. The 1208/2 suffered from the (minor) noise in the image that all older barcos have. No way is this PJ only 10% better than other 8" machines. That is just plain crazy!!!
Also, a G70 is not just 10% better than a M8500! Come on! The G70 is way sharper, better colors, better shadow detail. That is silly to say 10% better!
| Curt Palme wrote: | | Newbies are usually more concerned with fan noise, size, ease of setup anyways. Once they get to be more seasoned CRTers, THEN the niggly details as to bandwidth, 100 points of convergence, sharpness etc come into play more than with a first time CRT owner. |
These are ergomomic issues. Yes, we probably should rate them on a few dimensions:
- Image quality
- Ergomomics (fan noise, throw ratio, size, etc)
- Ease of set up
So, we could score them on these dimensions than have a weighted rating, so the final score was something like image quality 65% of score, ergonomics 20% of the score, ease of set up 15%. Frankly, it you did this, the 1292 would fall even lower?!?!?!?
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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The list is less accurate and more subjective now than it was before, the onyx being the best example.
Bruce
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce 09 wrote: | The list is less accurate and more subjective now than it was before, the onyx being the best example.
Bruce |
How so, and what metrics are you using? How is the Onyx the best example? It is int he same relative position (grouped with the G70 and XG LC) than it was before. They just jumped over the lesser 9" machines.
So, please share the thoughts of why you think the noisy 1292 is more desirable in a home theater setting than a G70.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce 09 wrote: | The list is less accurate and more subjective now than it was before, the onyx being the best example.
Bruce |
Also, color accuracy can be measured. How is that subjective. A G70 is much more accurate than any non-filtered machine. How is that subjective?
The subjective component is really how do you rank things. I'm attempting to use the generally sense of priorities in the industry. Given that, resolution is waaaaay more important than everything else.
Home Theater magazine just did a shoot out where the way better Pioneer 768p plasma was put up against a field of 1080p plasmas. It was the best display. Why? Because it beat the 1080p displays on EVERY picture quality parameter than resolution. I think they were correct on this on.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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