CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[k.berger]

Robert I am reposting it, somehow Scott' message repeated itself and you may have missed my response,

as per Scott's (if I remember correctly) they should be white stickers with numbers starting with "8". Here is what I found - tray itself has sticker on edge: #80946. Card itself has (among others) # 80893.
Also, I think by Scott's info, (he IS real, and I mean REAL EXPERT), there are many similarities between 2000 and 4200. If they apply to reg. board, I don't know. I am new to Ampro, and don't really feel very comfortable (YET!... I hope... Smile )

Thanks guys again,

Kris

[Robert A. Hill]

Kris,
The sticker for the ampro 2000 tray that I have is 80896. Not the same as the 4200. No idea what the difference is.

[k.berger]

Robert,

sounds close, but you really never know... 4200 is unusual I guess, since there were so few of them made (as far as I understand, it doesn't even have service manual...).
I will try to ask Curt, or maybe Scott will chip-in, I would be surprised if one of them doesn't have the answer.
I would gladly try to change it, if Scott thinks there is a chance for improvement,\. I really like the beast (it's my first 9"LC!). In fact I like it so much, I am going to hang it despite this flaw,

Kris

[tse]

I've been studying up on the subject a bit and here is what I've found.

My 4200 tray is 80946

The waveform/blanking bd is 80892

Function summer is 80893 with 80894 daughter bds

I also have a very late version 2000 which has 81229 tray

Waveform/blanking bd is 80892 (same as 4200)

Function summer bd is all surface mount parts, number 81289

I have two spare f summer bds with p/n 81145. The only difference I see between 81145 and 81289 is a different programmable part in the lower left corner. Why? I don't know. I tried one of the 81289 bds in my 4200 and none of the registration functions worked. I tried both EEPROMs and it made no difference.

Ampro relied way too much on programmable parts. It let them get away with poor planning as it could always be fixed with firmware. I didn't like that but they didn't listen to me.

The 4200 should be almost identical to the 2000. The only big difference is the mag focus bd in the 4200. Other than the mother bd everything else should be the same.

None of this fixes the noise in the picture. Why I don't see it in my 4200, I don't know. Everything is as it came from the factory. Even the silicon on the centering rings was factory when I first got the set. There aren't any magic mods.

Scott

[k.berger]

Scott,

THANKS! Outcome is not what I was hoping for, but the effort you have put into finding the way to solve the problem is still greatly appreciated!
It looks like I will have to learn how to live with those pesky lines... Incidentally, I experimented yesterday night with moving from ~104" with to ~110"> I still have PJ on movable cart, so I can find how big I can get (room is not that big, but I can still get sitting distance about 1.3 1.4 with - I am thinking seriously about 2.35:1 screen (CIH ).
What I noticed was that the "lines" became LESS visible! I thought about it, and it sort of makes sense, if your line instability is correct: when lines get farther away (with bigger screen) it is possible that their interaction diminishes slightly, making whole artifact less objectionable... Can that be?
I wonder if changing refresh rate (I intend to try to run it at either 1080p/48, or in caSE of CIH 817p/48 ) will change anything? It will have to wait till I hook-up Lumagen again though... I tried it already, but custom timings I have there for Eletrohome proved to be incompatible with Ampro. Apparently it doesn't like such small porches...
Anyway, if you guys have any other suggestions for improvements, changes etc, I AM ALL EARS!!!


Kris

[macgyver655]

[k.berger]

Sorry! You are right... I sort of accepted Scott's description as better (and fitting what I am seeing). And of course, the fact that you can get rid of them in both cases by turning Registration off, strongly suggests that he is (as usual) right on the money with his hunch .
They indeed cover whole screen, although they are really only detectable in light/white areas. as far as far as colors: red and blue are far worse focus-wise, including astig (which was messed-up originally), but as far as I can tell, they are there.
They also seem to move, but I think it may be illusion, since their intensity varies, and I think what I am seeing is greater intensity areas rolling (mostly up?).
They definitely (as far as my experience with AV electronics goes) look like noise/interference, actually more interference, in the sense that there has to be single dominant frequency, hence the rolling/pulsating effect.
Sorry for such an inaccurate description, but it is not an easy thing to do (or even see for that matter).
Interestingly though, when you look at the screen from distance preventing you from seeing them directly, and you remove them (the trick with Registration OFF), you get the impression of somewhat cleaner/clearer image...
I just wonder what will happen when I finally hang the PJ and do full mechanical/optical and electronic set-up? Will it increase their visibility?

Kris

[macgyver655]

Based on your description I can relate to your problem. I was watching this thread to see if there was an outcome. I had a similar problem some years ago when I was switching from Sony to Ampro in my theater. I had aguired 2 Ampro 3300's. I first tried them on a table to see which one had stronger tubes. There was no wear on eather so that was not an issue. After chooseing I mounted one on the ceiling. After completion I noticed lines in the pic like you describe. Faint lines that would occasionally move up and down, sometimes faster then other's, and usually on lighter color pic like whites. Sometimes barely noticeable, others very annoying.

My first thought was I didn't remember seeing these when I was trying this on the table, but whatever they are there now. So in an attempt to get rid on these and haveing another fully functional 3300 I began replaceing parts. One by one I replaced every board and power supply with no change. Noticed a little change with different SMPS so then concentrated there only to later realize it really wasn't much different. So I lived with it like that but still enjoyed it.

Then 5 years ago I moved and when I eventually hung the 3300 at my new location I emediately found that the lines were gone. Don't really have a reason to give you but I tried to think of possible reason no matter how far out there they are.

First I used a different mount here then the other place. The other mount was more elaborate and consisted of more steel. So maybe a magnetic field issue, dont know. Is you projector cart metal or wood?

Next, projector direction. Old place it faced north, here South. Now before you guys start laughing I have found on some displays there is a switch for N S E W. Have only ever read that the switch is for device direction in relation to earth's magnetic field. Hey, I told you some of these are out there but I dont really know. Hey if it's on a cart, try turning it a different direction.

Other wise maybe issue's like floresent light's, ceiling fans, who knows.

The thing is even though it goes away with registration off I'm not sure its a registration problem since I changed my board back then and it didn't fix it and now it's gone with the same board. Probably the registration circuits are picking up the interference and or amplifing it. Anyways hope you can find it because the pic is much better without the problem.

[k.berger]

Interesting observations and experiences!
What you have seen sort of goes with outcome of Scott' experiments - no clear-cut culprit, therefore no solution...
Funny (I mentioned it at the beginning), when I was looking for anything loose, misadjusted or in any obvious way incorrect hardware-wise, i flipped termination switch at the back by the "V" Connector, and I could swear that the lines disappeared... Unfortunately later, when I was playing with it again, I couldn't repeat the experience, and when I was at the screen, looking at it, I am reasonably sure I heard soft pop and the lines appeared again...
However unlikely and weird this story sounds (I guess, I would have my doubts hearing it ), I am pretty sure it's accurate... Go figure...
You are right with your suggestions: I always say - If you can't find logical solution, try illogical ones... , they actually may work!
Maybe they will disappear when I hang it? One can only hope...

Kris

[tse]

There are ways to chase down these noise problems. First thing to do would be set all the registration functions to 50%. Increase the gain of the green vertical registration amp a bit to make the noise obvious. Try substituting the power to the registration amp with a lab supply. That fixes it or doesn't. Remove the green vertical signal from the registration amp and connected the amp input to ground. Noise goes away, the problem is with the signal. I kinda figure this will be the case. The registration signal is made up of each function summed together on the func summer bds. Disconnect them at the summing amp and reconnect one at a time. Maybe most of the noise comes from one specific signal. There are things that can be done but it will take alot of time and work.

Scott

[macgyver655]

I'd be curious to see if Kris's registration board in Scott's 4200 would have the lines. Sounds like a plan.

[k.berger]

Scott, of course you are right! Fundamentally everything is fixable if you are willing to spend enough time and effort... Problem is, I don't have your knowledge, equipment, parts, etc.... I am game for some experimenting though
But I think I will have to hang and set it up as best as I can the way it is (besides everything else, I WILL have to live with it for while, unless that is, I will find minty 9500 for $500.00 )...
I actually thought of putting it experimentally on UPS power (disconnected from AC of course), but I don't think mine would handle the load...
I know there re no quick solutions, but I still hope we can figure out something, judging from other responses, there are more people in similar situation,

Kris

[tse]

Kris,

I'm still trying to find a set of function summer bds to test in my 4200. So far all I have been able to dig up are the surface mount types which don't seem to be directly compatable with the older stuff. Probably different firmware on the CPU because they work on my 2000. I'm pretty sure that is what's wrong with your projector. Let me see what I can do.

Scott

[k.berger]

Scott,

You always amaze me! There aren't many people willing to put so much effort to help others... Over the years I have read many treads in which you shared your enormous knowledge, patiently dealing with us, mere amateurs! In fact, you worked at this machine with RAJDUDE (I think last year?) Which remains me: I should call him (he is really nice guy!) and check with him, if he did see those lines?.. As MCGYVER noticed, they CAN appear and disappear for unknown reasons... Maybe when I put it on the ceiling they will disappear?
As always, I will wait for news from you, and of course I am sure I will have million other questions!
How wonderful to have on your side somebody who actually built those machines! 8)

Kris

[k.berger]

Interesting - I just flipped the connectors (and switch) to reverse image from table-top position to ceiling, to do0 some preliminary adjustments before I hang it up. I didn't know it clears memory of active channel. What happens now is that even with Reg ON (albeit not affecting image - being zeroed-out), the lines are gone!
Logically that would suggest that it IS Registration board somehow... Only problem is, people were already replacing them without any effect... Go figure...

Kris

[rajdude]

Hi everyone!
This is Rajiv. I have not been at AVS for a LONG time. This site is also very new to me , I usually just look at AVS.

Anyway Kris just pointed me to this thread and I read some of the posts.


I must point out one thing.......before Kris tries to mess up with the reg board.......I must point out that I had replaced the original 4200's board with one from a 4600. I am talking about the reg amp board. (this swap has been discussed in my monster 4200 thread at AVS)

It is "almost" a drop in swap. we have to invert the connectors to the coils because the 4200's amps invert the convergence signal. I found this board to be much better than the 4200's board. Better stability and less heat. (the heatsinks are properly positioned)

But there are two reg boards....maybe Kris is talking about the other one....the one which has a SMPS on it?


BTW, I still have the original 4200 board. I also have the other board...the one with the SMPS (has a dead SMPS, but I have the replacement parts, never got time to install the parts, just got a new board (THANKS a million to tse)).

[rajdude]

and yes!

The lines were there with both boards.

And the lines do go away when the convergence/registration is turned off.