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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: Here we go again digital lcd claim's 50000:1 CR |
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http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/consumer/consDetail.jsp?oid=63073680&r0302RBb5G
UltraBlack™ technology for the deepest blacks
50,000:1 contrast ratio (dynamic setting), 4,000:1 (native)
C²Fine™ 3LCD technology, 1600 lumens
ISF preset color modes for easy calibration
Extended color gamut
1080Perfect™ video processing
Two HDMI 1.3 ports
OptiCinema™ lens for superior quality
E-TORL™ lamp for greater color uniformity
Ceiling mount and spare lamp, and additional year warranty included
Anyone seen one of these in action?
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CRT.
HD done right!
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mike calcott
Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 307
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: |
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We sell them in the store where I work part time , My 1251 with 1271 mods blows it away
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rabies_70
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 1189
Location: Carlsbad, CA
TV/Projector: Sony G70Q
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Couple that with some of our newly patented kick ass clothes hanger speaker wires and you WILL be the envy of all the digital folks. For just 29.95 (Free Shipping) I will send you all the specially designed hanger wire you need to do an entire home theater. The best part? What you don't use right away simply hang up in your closet until you need a new one. Don't be fooled by lesser cheap copies. Get yours today. 
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Ray
I am an iconoclast
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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You know, I have come to the conclusion that with a modified digital projector to maximize the CR someone like my wife could use it in the batcave for non-critical viewing. And considering the cost is about equivalent to a 50-58" low-end flat-panel, I'd be fairly game.
Of course, for CRITICAL viewing and a lust for CR/BL its not even worth the attempt. I'd also be concerned with panel alignment.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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I've been looking at ALOT of digitals lately because I want a CIH set up. I've come to a few conclusions:
1) Dynamic Irises suck. For the dynamic range you will really experience, native panel contrast is all that really matters. If the 1080UB is claiming a native of 4000:1, then it is likely to have a calibrated native CR of between 2100 and 2600:1. This means a DLP with a claimed CR of around 5000:1 will look much better than this PJ with its claimed 50,000:1.
2) LCDs suck. They have too many issues: stuck pixels, convergence problems, etc.
Given that LCDs target the bottom end of the market, I don't see quality going up on them so even with LEDs as the light source to fix the CR issues, they are likely to still have their other problems.
From what I've seen, IMO a top end used 720p DLP puts out a much nicer picture than the current crop of 1080 LCDs. If you were going to get a digital for some viewing, I'd pick up one of those for <$1500 instead of a 1080p LCD.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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WTS
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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I think I'd have to agree too if you aren't bothered by the rainbows. I can't get over the fact that the LCDs seem to discolour very quickly on most of them or have bloob problems etc. etc.
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Walter
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| WTS wrote: | | I think I'd have to agree too if you aren't bothered by the rainbows. I can't get over the fact that the LCDs seem to discolour very quickly on most of them or have bloob problems etc. etc. |
I see rainbows all the time. If one is like me, your choices narrow because you can't use a 4x color wheel machine. You need to go to a 5x machine. On a 4x machine I'm seeing them all the time when everyone else is saying "what are you talking about." On a 5x machine, I see them, but very rarely when watching normally. A 6x machine completely eliminates them.
Also, there are a few 720 DLPs out there that will sync to a 48Hz signal and put the color wheel at 6x. So, no 60 Hz judder and no RBE.
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Dave
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure of the color wheel speed but a friends HD70 drives me crazy!
You really think a used single chip 720p DLP is better than a 1080p LCD like a Mitsu 4900?
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| greg_mitch wrote: | | Not sure of the color wheel speed but a friends HD70 drives me crazy! |
7 segment 4x speed color wheel. Something like an Optoma H79 with an 8 segment 5x wheel is WAAAAAAY better. There are some others too. Most can be had for <$1500 now.
| greg_mitch wrote: | | You really think a used single chip 720p DLP is better than a 1080p LCD like a Mitsu 4900? |
Emphatically YEEEES.
A Mitsu 4900 is a 5000 with worse processing and less CR (dynamic of 7500:1 as opposed to 10000:1). Read my comments on it here (see the 9th paragraph):
https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=9374.html
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
Last edited by Person99 on Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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I couldn't STAND 720p, personally. I sit close enough to the screen that I'd see SDE and/or pixels all the time. No thanks. Plus, 720p is just too little res. To me, it's just a 'pick your poison' type of thing. Some things suck about LCD, some things suck about DLP. Until you get into the big-buck stuff, I don't like the look of DLP at all. Never have.
SC
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | I couldn't STAND 720p, personally. I sit close enough to the screen that I'd see SDE and/or pixels all the time. No thanks. Plus, 720p is just too little res. To me, it's just a 'pick your poison' type of thing. Some things suck about LCD, some things suck about DLP. Until you get into the big-buck stuff, I don't like the look of DLP at all. Never have.
SC |
All home theater is about trade-offs, even in the way high end (they just have fewer trade-offs). Personally, I'd rather watch a better image from 1.7x screen width (a good 720p DLP like the H79, Sammy 710, Marantz VP11S4) than a worse image from 1.4x. But that is just me. Also, there are many many people whose preferred viewing distance is 1.7x or greater. YMMV.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | I couldn't STAND 720p, personally. I sit close enough to the screen that I'd see SDE and/or pixels all the time. No thanks. Plus, 720p is just too little res. To me, it's just a 'pick your poison' type of thing. Some things suck about LCD, some things suck about DLP. Until you get into the big-buck stuff, I don't like the look of DLP at all. Never have.
SC |
BTW, just curious, which high end 720p DLPs and which 1080p LCDs have you viewed?
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Dave
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Personally, I'd rather watch a better image from 1.7x screen width (a good 720p DLP like the H79, Sammy 710, Marantz VP11S4) than a worse image from 1.4x. But that is just me. Also, there are many many people whose preferred viewing distance is 1.7x or greater. YMMV. |
Of course everybody has their favorite spot. I wasn't speaking for anybody but myself, which is why I said, "*I* couldn't deal with 720p.". My favorite spot is closer than yours, and IMHO 1.2x doesn't work for 720p - for me, at least. Nor was I saying that 1080p LCD was better in any way - just that I would probably prefer it because I don't want to look at pixels. Ever. I look at pixels at work all day every day. I don't want to see them watching movies.
If you can take anything from my comments, it's that I wouldn't really be happy with any digital right now that I could actually afford/justify. I think I could be happy enough with something like a Pearl or a JVC, but I couldn't tolerate any panel alignment issue and the price is way too high for me at this point in my life. I'd guess that in a couple years from now, it will all be a different story.
| Person99 wrote: | | BTW, just curious, which high end 720p DLPs and which 1080p LCDs have you viewed? |
God, I can't keep track of them all, Dave. CEDIA last year... HT specialty shops. Runco, Sim2, Marantz... Ruby, Pearl... I've seen so many damn projectors, they've all started to all look the same. Critical viewing comparisons? Hardly any. My own room, both of Art's systems, the CEDIA Ruby/G90 side-by-side demo... a few lower-end LCD and DLP home setups, and a few more I can't even remember. I will say I don't care for the look from practically any lower-end machines - DLP or LCD.
SC
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | My favorite spot is closer than yours, and IMHO 1.2x doesn't work for 720p - for me, at least. Nor was I saying that 1080p LCD was better in any way - just that I would probably prefer it because I don't want to look at pixels. |
As an FYI, you'll see pixels at 1.2x on every LCD PJ but the Pannys.
And yeah, 1.2 is a bit too close for me. Just curious, and seriously not being sarcastic, how did you ever sit 1.2x from a 1271? That would be waaaaay too soft for me even if I liked it that close
| ecrabb wrote: | | I wouldn't really be happy with any digital right now that I could actually afford/justify. I think I could be happy enough with something like a Pearl or a JVC, but I couldn't tolerate any panel alignment issue and the price is way too high for me at this point in my life. |
And that is fair.
| ecrabb wrote: | God, I can't keep track of them all, Dave. CEDIA last year... HT specialty shops. Runco, Sim2, Marantz... Ruby, Pearl... I've seen so many damn projectors, they've all started to all look the same. Critical viewing comparisons? Hardly any. My own room, both of Art's systems, the CEDIA Ruby/G90 side-by-side demo... a few lower-end LCD and DLP home setups, and a few more I can't even remember. I will say I don't care for the look from practically any lower-end machines - DLP or LCD.
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I was just surprised you were so adverse to 720p digitals because there are some that I would take in a hearbeat over a 7" CRT because they have got to the point of being better on enough axis. Now, against a good 8", not so much. But, my comment was directly specifically at good 720p DLP being better than 1080p LCD. Whether 720p DLP has any merit on its own is another discussion. 
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Dave
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| greg_mitch wrote: |
You really think a used single chip 720p DLP is better than a 1080p LCD like a Mitsu 4900? |
Just to follow up on this. I've seen the HC5000 which is better than the HC4900. This weekend I got to spend some time with a 1080p Epson 1080UB and a 720p Samsung SP-H710AE. The Sammy is pretty much the best DarkChip2 DLP PJ made and had the input of Joe Kane in its design and calibration.
The Epson 1080UB was better than the HC5000. Iris worked a little better and over all picture quality was a bit better. I thought the Sammy was far better than both of them in overall picture quality. More natural looking, more film-like, way better colors. The LCDs all have a "haze" in very low APL scenes which the Sammy did not have. Also, the sammy will sync to 48 Hz and adjust the color wheel to 288 Hz (6x, down from the 300Hz or 5x on on 60 Hz signal). At 6x, RBE is kind of rare (I still see it sometimes on 5x).
So yes, I'm still standing by the good 720p DLP beats a 1080p LCD!
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Dave
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:00 am Post subject: |
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Have you seen the Sony VPL-VW40?
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | | Have you seen the Sony VPL-VW40? |
Not yet, why? I"ve not seen a properly calibrated VW50 yet either.
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Dave
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Because, why spend $2500 on a 58" 768P Panasonic plasma when you can spend $2800 on a 1080P LCoS for non-critical* viewing.
* The absence of CR/BL
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | | Because, why spend $2500 on a 58" 768P Panasonic plasma when you can spend $2800 on a 1080P LCoS for non-critical* viewing. |
Um, because you want the flat panel mounted in a bedroom or the living room and want to watch it during the day.
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Dave
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | WanMan wrote: | | Because, why spend $2500 on a 58" 768P Panasonic plasma when you can spend $2800 on a 1080P LCoS for non-critical* viewing. |
Um, because you want the flat panel mounted in a bedroom or the living room and want to watch it during the day. |
I have a flat panel mounted in the family room and I can say with the windows in the room covered with dark wine covered drapes the light coming through the windows in the adjacent rooms on sunny days still makes it difficult to watch. I've resigned myself to the belief that even non-critical viewing is almost not worth it unless you are in rooms with complete light control.
I am surprised you didn't suggest they were for people that were afraid of the dark.
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