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IWantMyHD
Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 20
Location: Ashland, MA
TV/Projector: Electrohome ECP 4100
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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Wow. I never expected such strong opinions when I posted my inquiry. But I guess when you are fondling something in a dark room a certain intimacy develops.
I did find an IR to RF box that supposedly will make my Bose system hear the IR signal (see link below) which means any of the aforementioned remotes will work with the Bose. http://www.audioauthority.com/product_list/IR_Converter
I think in my younger days I would probably have leaned towards the Pronto touch screen devices - I would have enjoyed programming and refining the UI and showing off just how cool it looked. And I have no doubt it is a great device and (with good thoughtful programming) can be made easy for novices to use. But in my older age I prefer function over form and and would rather be comfortable than cool.
I really just want 4 buttons: Watch TV, Watch DVD, Watch DVR, Watch Blu-ray and then the standard Volume, Channel, Pause, Mute, etc. I will always have the original device remotes for obscure settings and such. I don't need a color screen, interactive help feedback, backlighting on tilt, etc. I don't need RF as I already have an IR repeater above the screen. And, I don't want to have a charging station or be changing batteries every couple of weeks to support fancy LCD displays - the glitz and entertainment is on the big 104" screen in front of me.
Having said this I am worried about the cheaper models being so dummied down to attract the mass market that there macro/programming capabilities will be compromised (as was suggested about the Logictech offerings). I don't want to invest the time in designing and programming my remote only to get stymied because of programming limitations. Anybody see any reason why I would not take Dave's suggestion and get a URC MX-500?
Also, a couple of posts mentioned controlling the lighting using the remote. I hadn't even thought about that but that would be real useful. I don't know how many times I have pushed back the recliner with a bowl of popcorn on my lap and saw that my lights weren't fully dimmed. And I don't know much about this X10 technology but I am thinking that if you can control lighting than you should be able to control outlets and therefore my remote should be able to control any of my equipment that might have TOAD problems by targeting their power outlet. Any suggestions on where to go to get educated on this technology so I can use my remote to control my dimmer and maybe equipment outlets? It this a consideration for my remote choice?
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rabies_70
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 1189
Location: Carlsbad, CA
TV/Projector: Sony G70Q
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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The x10 lighting control is rather simple. You'll need an IR543. easy. Or computer interface, a little less easy, and then you need modules. I ebay source them and you can get decent prices. If you don't go the Pronto route you'll need an x10 remote so you can make whatever remote you choose learn the ir commands. X10 is a good thing in my theater. Dims the lights to off as a movie starts and slowly comes to full on after the movie. You'll like that.
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Ray
I am an iconoclast
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| IWantMyHD wrote: | | Wow. I never expected such strong opinions when I posted my inquiry. |
Haven't you seen my posts before?!?!?!? I have strong opinions about EVERYTHING. 
| IWantMyHD wrote: | | Having said this I am worried about the cheaper models being so dummied down to attract the mass market that there macro/programming capabilities will be compromised (as was suggested about the Logictech offerings). |
If what you want to do is simple, you'll like the Harmony. If you need fine grain control of macros, then they suck. If you need macros that cannot be accomplished by activity entry and exit scripts, they suck. If your needs are simple, then you will likely love them and the programming for simple uses is not too bad. 
A Harmony 550 may meet your needs and they can be had on ebay for less than $70. It may very well meet your needs.
| IWantMyHD wrote: | | Anybody see any reason why I would not take Dave's suggestion and get a URC MX-500? |
A used MX-500 is actually pretty cheap these days, even less than $40. There are couple on ebay right now, for instance:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Universal-Remote-Control-MX-500-Used_W0QQitemZ200203070084QQihZ010QQcategoryZ61323QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
they have pretty good feel (better than a harmony) and they pretty much last forever (of course, until I got a Harmony, I didn't even know remotes broke, I thought they all lasted forever). The downsides of the MX-500 are:
1) they are not programmable via computer therefore, it the built in database does not have the code, you'll need the original remote to program it.
2) You have to manually program everything on the remote, learning IR for each key you want to use it on (no copy from except on the volume and mute keys), programming soft key text, etc.
3) Macros can only be assigned to the 3 dedicated macro keys (labeld M1-M3) or the 10 soft keys. The soft keys only execute the macro if you push and hold the button down for 1 second.
The newer 200 is relatively cheap and has less soft keys but more flexibility than the old 500.
| IWantMyHD wrote: | | Also, a couple of posts mentioned controlling the lighting using the remote. I hadn't even thought about that but that would be real useful. I don't know how many times I have pushed back the recliner with a bowl of popcorn on my lap and saw that my lights weren't fully dimmed. |
You don't need X10 for the lights. If you only have 1 light switch than needs to be controlled and the remote functions of "all on", "all off", 1 pre-programmed level (a scene), and "brighter" and "dimmer" are good enough, you can get a lutron switch that does all this via IR for $30.
| IWantMyHD wrote: | | And I don't know much about this X10 technology but I am thinking that if you can control lighting than you should be able to control outlets and therefore my remote should be able to control any of my equipment that might have TOAD problems by targeting their power outlet. Any suggestions on where to go to get educated on this technology so I can use my remote to control my dimmer and maybe equipment outlets? It this a consideration for my remote choice? |
I would not do a TOAD device via power. What is your TOAD device? If a cable box, most people can just leave them on all the time and the problem is solved. You can also check remotecentral as there are some goofy macro hacks that can effectively let you achieve a known state with some TOAD devices. If you truly have a TOAD that needs to be power cycled, then you may want to consider a cheap harmony, you can always sell it and only lose $20 or so for trying it.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, Dave sure does have strong opinions about.... just about everything and he ain't afraid to express them 
_________________
Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | No offense my friend , but this is exactly what I think is the wrong way to program a remote. This is effectively a "device" based layout. I was doing "activity" based layouts before harmonys existed (as were others) because those pass the baby sitter test. A layout with a page for turning things on and off keeps my wife from using the theater. Let's say that my wife and daughter want to go watch the Hi Def version of Madagascar we have on D-VHS after watching something on cable, this is what you have to do with that approach:
1) turn off cable box
2) turn on JVC 30K
3) wait for JVC power up and IEEE bus scan (about 2 seconds)
4) turn on Mitsu D-VHS machine
5) Set receiver input
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Yep. I'm somewhere in the middle or actually closer to 'activity' based layout as as soon as you switch between the panels to either watch TV or a Movie, the system auto-switches between the two. If something's not on, it turns on (other than the projector).
So it's fairly automatic.
Kal
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GEBrown
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 729
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| IWantMyHD wrote: | . . . . But in my older age I prefer function over form and and would rather be comfortable than cool.
I really just want 4 buttons: Watch TV, Watch DVD, Watch DVR, Watch Blu-ray and then the standard Volume, Channel, Pause, Mute, etc. I will always have the original device remotes for obscure settings and such. I don't need a color screen, interactive help feedback, backlighting on tilt, etc. I don't need RF as I already have an IR repeater above the screen. And, I don't want to have a charging station or be changing batteries every couple of weeks to support fancy LCD displays - the glitz and entertainment is on the big 104" screen in front of me.
Having said this I am worried about the cheaper models being so dummied down to attract the mass market that there macro/programming capabilities will be compromised (as was suggested about the Logictech offerings). I don't want to invest the time in designing and programming my remote only to get stymied because of programming limitations. Anybody see any reason why I would not take Dave's suggestion and get a URC MX-500?
. . . |
I have a Harmony 880 that I like a LOT!! The four buttons you want are readily available - that's what I do with mine - and the Harmony has some intelligence that keeps track of what devices are on and which are off. So if I choose "Watch TV", it turns on my cable box, my A/V receiver and my projector - and I can specify the order that they are powered up. Then if I want to watch an HD-DVD, I press that activity button and it turns off the cable box and powers up my HD-DVD player, leaving the PJ and A/V receiver on.
I never liked the programming on the MX-500. I have all the control I need with the Harmony. As previously stated, I can modify the order that devices are powered on, and it keeps track of what is on and what is off. The MX-500 can't do that. I can add commands to recall different memory blocks on my Marquee for HD TV vs HD-DVD. I have dropped my Harmony numerous times and it is still ticking, but YMMV of course.
Not arguing with Dave, as I always enjoy his opinions and experience, clearly our experience with Harmony is quite different!!! It is probably a matter of model number.
ALL the commands for my Comcast Cable HD-DVR were automatically downloaded. ALL the commands for my Electrohome Marquee 8500 were downloaded. In fact the discreet On and Off were downloaded and even Marquee's built in remote doesn't know how to do that. I cannot say that the ECP4100 commands are there as I don't have that PJ.
But from what I have read, the Harmony is a good fit for you.
My 2 cents
Gary
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| GEBrown wrote: |
I have a Harmony 880 that I like a LOT!! The four buttons you want are readily available - that's what I do with mine - and the Harmony has some intelligence that keeps track of what devices are on and which are off. So if I choose "Watch TV", it turns on my cable box, my A/V receiver and my projector - and I can specify the order that they are powered up. <snip>
Not arguing with Dave, as I always enjoy his opinions and experience, clearly our experience with Harmony is quite different!!! It is probably a matter of model number. |
Nope, all those complaints are about trying to program two 880s (one for living room one for theater). You can sort of control the order, but within certain categories, you can't guarantee ordering. That was one of my issues, neither me or harmony support could program it to power on my JVC 30K before the Mitsu because the Mitsu was the primary device for this activity, and those always power on before ones that are not really the input device but in the same category.
The other issue is, I need a 2.5 second delay after the JVC 30K is powered on if you are powering on the Mitsu to watch a D-VHS tape. I don't need the 2.5 second delay if you are only powering on the JVC 30K to watch a D-Theater tape. The inter-device delay and those variables don't allow that level of control. I had to switch both of them to "always leave powered on" (which as I've mentioned does not mean "always leave powered on" but rather "Do not manage the power state") and manually put them into the activity entry and exit scripts to get it to work correctly.
| GEBrown wrote: | | I never liked the programming on the MX-500. |
Nobody did--and it is pretty old technology and was really the first powerful semi-reasonably priced remote. Try comparing the programming the 880 to programming an MX-850, I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
| GEBrown wrote: | | I have all the control I need with the Harmony. As previously stated, I can modify the order that devices are powered on, and it keeps track of what is on and what is off. The MX-500 can't do that. |
As stated, the MX-500 is pretty old. But yes, no URC under an MX-950 can do that (except for the new "harmony-like" ones). At the level of the MX-950, you can do everything you can do with a harmony and more. Problem is, they cost over $300. 
But, let's address this keeping track of what is on and what is off. The VAAAAAAST majority of people don't need that. Generally, people have no more than 1 TOAD device, if that TOAD device is a cable box (which seems to be the most common TOAD), then you are fine with something like the MX-850 (better off than you are with a Harmony). Cable boxes can be left on all the time. So, just do that and use all the other device's discreet codes.
The only reason I need to turn off my cable box is because I use D-VHS and firewire is waaaaay buggy in the A/V world. My 30K will not see the mitsu if the cable box is powered up on the bus.
Anyway, I think the big problem with the Harmony comes if you ever want to do things that other universal remotes or automation systems to. Then you bump into the harmony's limitations pretty quickly. For instance, here is a very reasonable macro to have on your theater remote: Push 1 button to:
1) Pause the playing device (DVR, DVD player, etc)
2) Video mute the PJ.
3) Raise the lights to a specific "scene".
The only way I was able to do this with a Harmony was put that into a URC remote macro, put the Harmony in "learn RAW mode", then send that to the harmony as 1 logical command. What a pain!!!
If you know of a way to do this, please share--however, in 9 hours of programming, 7 hours of research, and 2 harmony support calls, I've never found another way. Simply put, one should be able to do this with a $200 remote!!! A remote that can't do this should not sell for more than $50!
| GEBrown wrote: | | Not arguing with Dave |
Why not? Trying to take away my fun.
| GEBrown wrote: | | It is probably a matter of model number. |
Nope, two 880s (well, technically 3 since 1 broke under warranty). Even though the 880 is an ergonomic nightmare compared to a URC I tried these because they have the most buttons of any harmony (as many buttons as the MX-850 and actually arguably a better use of them).
| GEBrown wrote: | | ALL the commands for my Electrohome Marquee 8500 were downloaded. In fact the discreet On and Off were downloaded and even Marquee's built in remote doesn't know how to do that. |
Lucky bastard. All the harmony's commands for my PJ were wrong. The only two the "worked" did the wrong thing! I had to learn all the PJ commands.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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jask
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 10187
Location: kamloops BC
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Lets start our own support group,
A couple of items: The 880 allows the user to program device delay online ( up to 2500mS) but I think it is only for a single device in a macro...
I configured mine to allow the use of a dvd/cd,vhs,tuner,and monitor... if I select " listen to radio" or "listen to cd" or "watch dvd"everything powers up and shuts down fine..however if I select watch tv everything powers up but when I turn it off the tuner will not shut off, it is a different manufacturer than the display, I have tried setting a signal delay and still no joy.
I agree Dave, any remote that sells for this kind of money needs to be better.
rant
rant
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| jask wrote: |
I agree Dave, any remote that sells for this kind of money needs to be better.
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I think half my anger is at harmony users!!!! I checked out the sites before buying one, and most users are, "yeah, these are great, buy one, buy one, buy one." I had difficulties finding much about its substantial limitations.
It is sort of like grandma who never drives over 40 MPH who tells you you don't need a Porsche, a Kia is great and will get you there as well as the Porsche! We'll it will for her, but not everyone! 
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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IWantMyHD
Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 20
Location: Ashland, MA
TV/Projector: Electrohome ECP 4100
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:01 am Post subject: |
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So it sounds like there are three camps, the Pronto group, the Harmony group and the URC/Home Theatre Master group. Since, as I said earlier, I'm too "married" to need the Pronto. that leaves the Harmony versus URC/HTM. Since my cable box is always on (can't let it miss the DVR of 24), I don't have any TOAD devices to worry about. I like the aestetics and ergonomics of the Harmony better. I like what I hear about the technical sophistication of the URC but I don't know if I will need it all. So I think the decision will come down to which will work best with my current ECP4100 PJ and be most likely to work with its CRT replacement (I love this PJ but it is getting a little long in the tooth).
Has anybody tried either of these remotes with this Electrohome PJ. I am particularly concerned with the POWER ON function as the original remote requires you keep the button pushed for a couple of seconds before it turns itself on. You guys have been great but I am 24 hours to my decision. My birthday is tomorrow so I plan to buy my new remotes and look for a new A/V processor to replace the Bose Lifestyle 50 audio while I have "birthday wife immunity."
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IWantMyHD
Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 20
Location: Ashland, MA
TV/Projector: Electrohome ECP 4100
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:29 am Post subject: |
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PS: Anyone know of any recent threads concerning A/V processor comparisons. When I am shopping to replaced my Bose, I'd love a little Curt Palme forum information.
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jask
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 10187
Location: kamloops BC
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:44 am Post subject: |
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| IWantMyHD wrote: | | PS: Anyone know of any recent threads concerning A/V processor comparisons. When I am shopping to replaced my Bose, I'd love a little Curt Palme forum information. |
start a thread in the forum, tell them what you need/want and how much the wife will not miss...and you will get lots of great ideas-forum members run the gamut from garage sale low tech to ....stuff I dream about.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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Crestron 
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6635
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GEBrown
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 729
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: So which way did you go? |
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IWanyMyHD,
So what remote(s) did you decide to try?
It's not like you didn't get enough opinions!!!!!
Gary
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IWantMyHD
Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 20
Location: Ashland, MA
TV/Projector: Electrohome ECP 4100
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: So which way did you go? |
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| Quote: | | So what remote(s) did you decide to try? |
I haven't yet. Ultimately I want three of the same remotes for my home theatre, family room and bedroom locations, so after hearing all the conflicting opinions I decided to test drive what in my head were the two finalists - the MX-500 and the Harmony 670. I "won" a used MX-500 on ebay for $35 and I bought a Harmony 670 from Amazon for $100.
The Harmony got here first, so I started with that remote and now have it fully programmed. Dave was right on about the Logitech Web programming user interface - it is clumsy and counter-intuitive, however, once you get your head around their twisted logic you can tweak the system pretty easily. And even though it is a bit of a pain having to go online to tweak my settings, I like the fact that Logitech always has a backup of my remote settings.
And Dave was also right about having to go to Logitech support to have them deal with settings that are not available to users directly. In my case, it was projector boot up source command timing delays. Although for me this was not a real problem because I probably would not have been able to diagnose what needed to be done without the help of the technician anyways.
My experience with Logitech support was however very good once I got past their utterly useless (but for some reason mandatory) 20 minutes of talking with someone at their New Delhi Level 1 support desk. The Level 2 guy (from the Harmony team in Toronto) got right to the point, listened to my issues, showed skillful diagnosing/debugging abilities and was successful at correcting every problem but one. I am waiting for him to get back to me on why the OFF button powers everything off except for my projector.
So all in all - a pretty good mark for the Harmony.
My MX-500 arrived in the mail today and I have yet to program it. Already, I think I like its keypad better as the keys that get a lot of usage during viewing such as volume, pause, FF, channel up/down,, etc. are larger and easier to find. Unfortunately, I have now been spoiled by the Logitech setup wizards. For the MX-500 I have to read a manual! The Logitech Web interface with their pre-programmed device database was really useful in getting basic devices and activities setup in place. I was impressed to find that even my HDMI Monoprice switcher was in their database.
My printer just finished printing the 80 page MX-500 manual, so I am off to test drive this remote. I'll let you know how it turns out.
[/quote]
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: So which way did you go? |
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| IWantMyHD wrote: | | Dave was right...And Dave was also right |
See, this is all everyone has to learn.
| IWantMyHD wrote: | | My experience with Logitech support was however very good once I got past their utterly useless (but for some reason mandatory) 20 minutes of talking with someone at their New Delhi Level 1 support desk. The Level 2 guy (from the Harmony team in Toronto) got right to the point, listened to my issues, showed skillful diagnosing/debugging abilities and was successful at correcting every problem but one. I am waiting for him to get back to me on why the OFF button powers everything off except for my projector. |
Yeah, I'd say the second level guys were good 80% of the time.
| IWantMyHD wrote: | For the MX-500 I have to read a manual! The Logitech Web interface with their pre-programmed device database was really useful in getting basic devices and activities setup in place. I was impressed to find that even my HDMI Monoprice switcher was in their database.
My printer just finished printing the 80 page MX-500 manual, so I am off to test drive this remote. I'll let you know how it turns out. |
Dude!!! The MX-500 is old and cost 1/3 the amount. To compare apples to apples, you should have got an MX-850. That let's you program it with a computer and the computer has a backup. In addition to the computer programming, the MX-850 also has more functionality and more hard buttons than the MX-500. If you end up liking the feel of the MX-500, buy the MX-850 for about $100!
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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whats6x7
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 5924
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: So which way did you go? |
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| Person99 wrote: | | you should have got an MX-850 |
I agree, so far the 850 is my favorite remote. I've used Prontos, Harmonys, Sonys (blehck!) and URCs. IMHO the 850 is the best remote. The directional pad is better than the 500/700/800 and so is the backlight. Tons of macros and I thought it was VERY easy to program.
My wife likes the Harmony. Its smaller and . . . "pretty". 
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: So which way did you go? |
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| whats6x7 wrote: | | IMHO the 850 is the best remote. The directional pad is better than the 500/700/800 and so is the backlight. Tons of macros and I thought it was VERY easy to program. |
I really like the fact also that the backlight does not come on when you pick up the remote. These remotes are so well designed, you can use them by touch in the theater. The Harmony 880/890 as well as the more expensive URCs all have tilt sensor backlights, so it is lighting up when I don't want it to!
The only thing the 850 lacks is variables. You need to go up to the 950 for that. I can do the family room and bedroom systems without variables, but the theater needs state tracking--damn it! 
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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KrisRoberts
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 115
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: |
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I was really interested in this thread since I have gotten fed up with the table full of remotes I normally have to use. I checked out most of the remotes discussed and ended up going with a Pronto. Lurked on ebay for a few days and got what I think was a pretty good deal on a TSU7000 and an RF Extender.
Spent the afernoon playing with it and setting up basic configs for most of my devices. Its fun, and the next step is going to be building a series of question/answer menus so my family can run stuff.
So far I'm really happy with it!
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