| Author |
Message |
overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Joust wrote: | What about the A35.
i've looked at a few comparisons of them vs the xa2. seem to be similar.
for me the xa2 is more desirable but not for the performance reasons.
i'm a tinkerer. |
I'm buying the A35.
No point in paying extra dough for the XA2.
Could anyone tell me why it's worth it?????
Cliffy
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Joust
Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 2429
Location: Almonte, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Marquee 8501LC
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
barcoguy
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 128
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kal wrote: | Before you get too excited about 48 or 72Hz, watch a bunch of movie content at 60Hz and see if the 3:2 pulldown judder bothers you.
It doesn't bother most people as if it did, 99.9% of TVs out there wouldn't be runing at 60Hz for movies.
Seriously. You need to check for yourself and see if spending an extra $1000 on something to go from 24Hz to 48/72Hz is worth it.
Kal |
I don't know what 3:2 pulldown judder means......
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If you don't know what 3:2 judder is then you probably don't care to run at 72Hz. 
I ran my HTPC for 7 years at exactly 71.928Hz so that 3:2 pulldown judder was completely elliminated. But this was only because it's really easy to do with an HTPC. When I replaced it with a PS3 I started using 60Hz. I never really notice the addition of 3:2 pulldown judder.
What's 3:2 pulldown judder? Use google... I don't want to spend 10 pages explaining it. 
Kal
_________________
Support our site by using our affiliate links. We thank you!
My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MYoung
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 369
Location: Madison, WI
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In regard to telecine judder, running a refresh rate of 60Hz when your source material is 24fps is going to introduce some stuttering in the video because 60 isn't evenly divisible by 24. Running at 48Hz or 72Hz gives film-based content that truly cinematic look.
I think people in North America have gotten used to the look of 60Hz thanks to television. Still, if you're going to the trouble of owning a 9" CRT projector you might as well go all out in my opinion, especially since CRT technology is quite unique in its ability to support different refresh rates. I think the VisionHDP is the best value scaler for 9" CRT projectors.
The VisionHDP allows for 1080p output. The VisionDVI tops out at 720p/1080i.
The ability to run refresh rates that are integer multiples of the source content's frame rate isn't the only advantage of a decent scaler, such as the VisionHDP. I could have spent $180 on a component video to RGB transcoder. I could have spend $150 on a decent video switcher. My VisionHDP does both of those things and I get to run at a resolution perfect for my 9" CRT projector at a refresh rate that's perfect for the source material I'm watching, given the capabilities of my projector.
If 60Hz looks good enough, then so be it. Good enough isn't what got me into CRT projectors, but to each their own. $1000 is a lot of money to most people on this forum, myself included. To be honest, I personally probably wouldn't own a VisionHDP had I not gotten an excellent deal on my 1292Q.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| MYoung wrote: | | If 60Hz looks good enough, then so be it. |
The point I was trying to make earlier by trying 72 vs 60hz first wasn't that I thought that 60 was 'good enough' but that a large percentage of people will not even be able to tell the two apart when you point it out to them.
If you can't see it, why spend money on it?
Kal
_________________
Support our site by using our affiliate links. We thank you!
My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MYoung
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 369
Location: Madison, WI
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You told him to watch 60Hz content and see if it bothers him. You didn't say to try an A/B test between 60Hz content and 48Hz/72Hz content. By all means, A/B test the two to see if you can tell the difference. But just watching 60Hz and not seeing what you're missing or if you're missing anything is like saying watch DVD and if it looks good don't bother with HDM. Of course, the question is how is he going to A/B test them? Does he have a 48Hz or 72Hz source? Actually, I believe it's 47.952Hz or 71.928Hz as 24fps film content is really 23.976fps in video. It takes some tweaking to get it correct on a HTPC. If you don't get it correct you'll still get some judder. If you cannot find a source that refreshes at a integer multiple of film then you can always check out a film at your local movie theater!
My point is that people salivate at the notion of high definition video, yet fail to recognize that the temporal quality of video is also important.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
barcoguy
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 128
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| MYoung wrote: | In regard to telecine judder, running a refresh rate of 60Hz when your source material is 24fps is going to introduce some stuttering in the video because 60 isn't evenly divisible by 24. Running at 48Hz or 72Hz gives film-based content that truly cinematic look.
I think people in North America have gotten used to the look of 60Hz thanks to television. Still, if you're going to the trouble of owning a 9" CRT projector you might as well go all out in my opinion, especially since CRT technology is quite unique in its ability to support different refresh rates. I think the VisionHDP is the best value scaler for 9" CRT projectors.
The VisionHDP allows for 1080p output. The VisionDVI tops out at 720p/1080i.
The ability to run refresh rates that are integer multiples of the source content's frame rate isn't the only advantage of a decent scaler, such as the VisionHDP. I could have spent $180 on a component video to RGB transcoder. I could have spend $150 on a decent video switcher. My VisionHDP does both of those things and I get to run at a resolution perfect for my 9" CRT projector at a refresh rate that's perfect for the source material I'm watching, given the capabilities of my projector.
If 60Hz looks good enough, then so be it. Good enough isn't what got me into CRT projectors, but to each their own. $1000 is a lot of money to most people on this forum, myself included. To be honest, I personally probably wouldn't own a VisionHDP had I not gotten an excellent deal on my 1292Q. |
I agree with you when you are talking about scaling up other sources. Such as cable tv, and HDTV. To 1080p and at some refresh rate
I did not know the VisionHDP did video switching. I have an extra 5cr plus that I like very much.
So are you using a moome card? OR just Vision right into the RGBHV of the projector. Can you adjust gamma with the VisionHDP that is the whole reason I got the moome card. I could get a great looking picture but dark parts of the image had NOOO detail.
Yes I agree with you, and kal. I do want to go all the way. But If I can't see 3:2 judder when someone points it out to me then why do it.
Can you guys tell me how to do an A to B test?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
barcoguy
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 128
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| MYoung wrote: | You told him to watch 60Hz content and see if it bothers him. You didn't say to try an A/B test between 60Hz content and 48Hz/72Hz content. By all means, A/B test the two to see if you can tell the difference. But just watching 60Hz and not seeing what you're missing or if you're missing anything is like saying watch DVD and if it looks good don't bother with HDM. Of course, the question is how is he going to A/B test them? Does he have a 48Hz or 72Hz source? Actually, I believe it's 47.952Hz or 71.928Hz as 24fps film content is really 23.976fps in video. It takes some tweaking to get it correct on a HTPC. If you don't get it correct you'll still get some judder. If you cannot find a source that refreshes at a integer multiple of film then you can always check out a film at your local movie theater!
My point is that people salivate at the notion of high definition video, yet fail to recognize that the temporal quality of video is also important. |
The only source material I have right now is a HTPC with standard DVD drive, HD cable. Thats it.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| barcoguy wrote: | Yes I agree with you, and kal. I do want to go all the way. But If I can't see 3:2 judder when someone points it out to me then why do it.
Can you guys tell me how to do an A to B test? |
Eeasiest way is with an HTPC, but it's not that easy. Setup a resolution with two refresh rates: 60hz and 71.928Hz (using powerstrip) and try both. Look at scenes with slow moving pans. At 60 Hz 3:2 pulldown is applied and the image will 'skip' slightly about once a second.
You could also borrow a scaler that lets you set refresh rate.
Neither is really a quick test.
Don't confuse this with the general stuttering you'll see when viewing pans with 24 fps film material. Even at exactly 71.928Hz, fast enough pans will never look 100% "smooth" on film because film is only shot at 24 frames/second.
Kal
_________________
Support our site by using our affiliate links. We thank you!
My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MYoung
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 369
Location: Madison, WI
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
barcoguy
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 128
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
So I could run RGBHV from the VisionHDP to my 9500lc use the VisionHDP as a video switch as well.
I guess the million dollar question is. Which is better if I input via a moome hdmi card or on RGBHV with the visionHDP.
Sounds like the visionHDP you can really tune the image (IE my crappy HD cable)
Or is it better to output dvi from the visionHDP to the hdmi of the moome?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MYoung
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 369
Location: Madison, WI
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
Up until now I've been using all component video sources to my VisionHDP -- component video from MyHD card for OTA HDTV, component video from my HD-A1 HD DVD player, and most recently, component video from my PS3 -- and running RGBHV to my projector. I was using a DVI to VGA adapter and a Extron box originally, but that had issues with high resolutions. RGBHV BNC outputs don't come standard on the VisionHDP, though they are an extra option. I sent my VisionHDP back to Lumagen to get them added for $100 plus shipping. However, thanks to the PS3 not having the best quality component output compared to HDMI output, I'm in the process of changing my video chain to use HDMI/DVI. Then I'll run HDMI to DVI cables from my HD sources to my VisionHDP and output DVI down a 25' DVI cable to a HDfury, then RGBHV BNC to my 1292Q. I think I might keep my HD DVD player on component video and get a DVI daughter board for the MyHD card. I don't really have any complaints with my HD-A1 outputting via component video. Toshiba must have used pretty good electronics for the component output. Besides, with the VisionHDP it makes no difference that the player cannot upscale DVD over component. The VisionHDP is surely better at upscaling DVD than the HD-A1 anyway. It is amusing to see the player display the message that it cannot upscale DVD while the VisionHDP upscales it to 1080p! The VisionHDP only has 2 DVI inputs, though a HDMI switcher would probably be an option if only 2 DVI inputs was a problem. In my case I'll have 3 HD sources.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
louthewiz
Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 10
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
I just scored an xa2 on ebay for 35 bucks.. 
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MYoung
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 369
Location: Madison, WI
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
Okay, so what does that make my HD-A2 worth? $20?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I would love to find an A-35 for the bit streaming of HD audio formats to my Onkyo receiver. If they get below $100 I will probably replace my A2 with one and then concentrate on finding a Blu Ray player.
_________________
"Coffee is for Closers."
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
