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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| perisoft wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | Yes I do, and it is VERY stretched. But I'm not showing you! |
I appreciate that. Please don't show me your flower mound, either. |
LOL
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Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Cheap digital that can satisfy the yearning for CIH? |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Bottom Line: Married white male desperately seeking a good looking PJ under $3000 (if built in vertical stretch) or under $2000 (if no built in vertical stretch) capable of looking good on a 50”x118” 2.35:1 screen in a bat cave. Installation flexibility is not a nearly as big of a concern as image quality. And about image quality, all I care about is film quality—don’t care about games, don’t care about sports—films, films, films. What PJs should I check out? |
You're wanting to score a cheerleader on fat broad money. I don't see how that's a realistic goal.
Of coarse, you're going from CRT to digital, so it's obvious you're not thinking clearly on any front. 
Do you really think you'll be happy with a digital Dave? I highly doubt it.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Cheap digital that can satisfy the yearning for CIH? |
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| Phil Smith wrote: |
Do you really think you'll be happy with a digital Dave? I highly doubt it. |
Probably not, so I'm starting to research to see if the blend is viable. However, my thinking has changed and I'm becoming more pragmatic, more about the "experience" and less about absolute video perfection.
I was talking to Matt about this awhile back, and I think there are 3 types of home theater “enthusiasts”:
1) The Big Dick
2) The ‘Phile type
3) The Experience type
The Big Dick type is primarily concerned with bragging rights. I'm sure everyone here knows who the Big Dick types are here and at AVS.
The ‘Phile is either an audio or videophile (or both) on the quest for the very best picture or sound. For these folks, the presentation is more important than the content.
The Experience folks want to watch movies and enjoy them. For these folks, the content is king and the presentation exists to make it enjoyable.
I think I was closer to a ‘Phile, but have slipped into Experience because first and foremost, I love movies. Because of this, I now detest 2.35:1 movies on a constant width set up. They seriously detract from the experience, even my wife is complaining about it (we went to see I Am Legend at the theater and where we sit in the theater makes our 1.85:1 image at home the same relative size [in the theater we sit the same number of screen heights away as in our home], but the 2.35:1 content is tiny compared to the theater experience).
So, at this point, I see things like this on the video front:
- LCD sucks and may always suck. For sports and stuff not bad, for movie lovers, so bad it detracts from the experience.
- DLP has gotten much better but still looks a bit too "digital" on alot of movie content. Black levels are getting there, but not there yet.
- LCoS has gotten significantly better in the last couple years. Damn close to as natural looking as a CRT but with just OK black levels.
- CRTs rule the "natural" look and black level category, but loose out in uniformity and fan noise (you Phil and the McGuyvers being the exceptions:)). They are still the king of "bang for your buck" by a decent margin.
So, its sort of is a toss up now for a great experience:
1) Choose an LCoS (or to a slightly lesser degree a DLP), and have a CIH set up that significantly enhances the movie watching experience for many movies (since scope movies seem to be almost half of what we watch) at the cost of a slightly worse experience on dark movies.
2) Choose a CRT and have a great experience on dark movies but a significantly less enveloping experience on Scope movies.
Well, if you value bang for the buck and/or absolute image quality, then the CRT is clearly the choice. But, if you value the movie watching experience and watch more scope movies than dark movies (which we do), then a sacrifice in black levels for the gain of a great scope experience as well as no fan noise during quiet parts may well be worth it. Until recently, the black levels of digitals were just too bad for them not to be distracting on dark content, but they have reach the point of not great, but at least not hideously distracting.
However, a blend changes all this as it pushes the CRT ahead--really just leaving the noise issue as the significant one.
You really should get to Matt's house, it will surprise you. Being over there a couple times really softened me up to digital. Putting a digital in the hands of a person that knows what they are doing leads to decent results.  I'd seen the Mitsu HC3000U several times and it always looked like crap. Then I saw his very well set up one and it didn't look like crap. This is just a 720p DLP with 4000:1 CR and he has got it looking very good on 95% of content. The very darkest scenes are still weak but everything else looks good. Comparing his set up to mine, the only real complaints I have with his are:
1) I can tell there is less resolution on fine details in content.
2) The darkest scenes are a bit weak.
3) From my preferred viewing distance, there is too much SDE.
In all seriousness, the only person who would find fault with Matt's set up is someone with a very good CRT which is well set up.
So, we now have digitals that eliminate problems 1 and 3 and further reduce the dark scene issues. So, yeah, they are now worth considering for a better overall experience. The problem though, is you are correct, great ones are not in the price range I was targeting.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Cheap digital that can satisfy the yearning for CIH? |
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| Person99 wrote: | | The Experience folks want to watch movies and enjoy them. For these folks, the content is king and the presentation exists to make it enjoyable. |
Well I'm definitely in this category, probably more than you, as I'm content to watch SD DVDs - even bad transfers - as long as the movie's good. But I'm also use to good picture quality. Good PQ makes even the worst of transfers look as good as they can, so good PQ is a plus even in the worst of situations. If I had stuck with digital, I doubt I'd be too concerned about PQ. But having grown accustom to CRT PQ, I don't think I could live with a downgrade in that department.
Luckily for me, I also watch a lot of TV with my PJ, so 16:9 is the best choice for my viewing habits.
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Ridebreck
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 943
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Uh....I would just like to point out to the group that we weren't actually having a discussion about "big dicks". I would prefer that we coin a phrase from Cliff and refer to that personality type as "Big Dog" from this point forward - k? 
Seriously, I'm flattered by the complements.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Cheap digital that can satisfy the yearning for CIH? |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | | But I'm also use to good picture quality. Good PQ makes even the worst of transfers look as good as they can, so good PQ is a plus even in the worst of situations. If I had stuck with digital, I doubt I'd be too concerned about PQ. But having grown accustom to CRT PQ, I don't think I could live with a downgrade in that department. |
You really need to go see a well set up RS2. There is no way you could claim it is a real downgrade in PQ. It will have better uniformity, no red/blue hot spotting and color shift, and frankly because LCoS is the "softest" digital, a natural look rivaling the CRT. The only things a gamma-enhanced CRT has over it are absolute black level and cost. Seriously, leave your biases at the door and go try to see one. Especially if it is in a CIH set up.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't even seen a RS1 yet, so you may be right.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | You've seen a well set up RS2 Dave? Do you have a post/comments about it that I missed? |
Nope, you didn't miss anything. I've seen it twice at local home theater stores and could tell it had promise. Recently I got to see an OK set up one--still needed its colors tweaked with but I could get a pretty good idea from it. As I've said for a couple years, LCoS is the only tech that will win the hearts of most CRTers. I went to see it to determine if I'm in a "wait for $3000 used RS2s" position.
I've seen a Sony Black Pearl and was not as impressed. I've not seen the VW200 yet though, so it might be as good.
I also got to spend some time with a Marantz VP15S1 (1080p DLP). Its 5x times color wheel still had me seeing rainbows, but not nearly as often as I do with a 4x wheel. The thing I do like about single chippers is perfect convergence. But, the DLPs always look too crisp too me--maybe this is the part of the "too digital" look of DLPs for me. Its colors where really good, but I like the slightly softer RS2 a bit better--looks more natural to me. Unfortunately, I wasn't in the position to try defocusing the Marantz a little to see if I liked it better.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: |
Stuff like the RS2 are the only reasons why I think I'll be happy by the time my current CRT projector dies (hopefully not for some time). |
Um, you are going to be waiting awhile if you are waiting for its death. Many are still using PJs build in 1995 and earlier--13+ years old. Given ours were built in 2001, they should be good until at least 2016 (longer if Curt doesn't get hit by a bus ).
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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kal
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Ridebreck
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 943
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Just keep your fingers crossed that yours doesn't try to start acting like Walter's 1200.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Here's another thing to think about Dave. We can only tolerate so many digital boys hanging out with us cool CRT guys. One is probably it, and Matt already beat you to that slot.
Do you really want to hang out on the digital forums? I wouldn't wish that on anyone!  
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | Very true Dave. With the image quality I'm getting I see absolutely no reason to switch. I'd actually like CIH too but I don't have room for it.
Kal |
Same here. I'm happy with my PJ. I don't even have any desire for a 9" PJ anymore. Well, if one fell in my lap I'd go for it, but I wouldn't spend one minute looking for one at this point.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | Here's another thing to think about Dave. We can only tolerate so many digital boys hanging out with us cool CRT guys. One is probably it, and Matt already beat you to that slot.
Do you really want to hang out on the digital forums? I wouldn't wish that on anyone! |
Well, you have a point. I have noticed there are alot of digi boys that just don't "get" it. Kind of annoying.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Ridebreck
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 943
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:09 am Post subject: |
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Resistance is futile, Phil. You'll see the light eventually. <cue evil laugh>
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WTS
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Ridebreck, mines working just fine again, just a blip on the old screen and she's back to normal. God damn good thing it's not a digital or she'd be off to the scrap heap.
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Walter
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Ridebreck
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 943
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Don't get me wrong, Walter. I knew that you wouldn't have any problems fixing it. It was just a little bit of good-natured ribbing. I'm no digital fanboy - I just happen to own one (that hasn't gotten but a few hours of use in the last several months).
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Ridebreck wrote: | | Resistance is futile, Phil. You'll see the light eventually. <cue evil laugh> |
Well so far resistance hasn't been futile Matt. In fact it's been quite easy.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Ridebreck wrote: | | Don't get me wrong, Walter. I knew that you wouldn't have any problems fixing it. It was just a little bit of good-natured ribbing. I'm no digital fanboy - I just happen to own one (that hasn't gotten but a few hours of use in the last several months). |
Matt,
Why is that? You haven't been watching many movies, or you've been watching your downstairs TV?
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