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deronmoped
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1154
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| emdawgz1 wrote: | | deronmoped wrote: | You guys talking about low prices on BR DVD's are leaving out the fact that there was a war going on. Now that the war is over will prices still stay low or will they reflect that BR is the only place to get a high definition disc? I mean why even bother selling a disc that is about the same price as a SD DVD. BR DVD's have to be way more expensive to make and market and they can not spread the cost over billions of them like they can on a SD DVD.
I would look back at what BR DVD's sold for when they first came out, before they started reducing prices to be competitive with HD DVD, maybe there is a clue there in what they have to sell them for to make it worth while.
The whole idea behind HD DVD was they were able to use existing SD DVD factories to produce them. No huge start up cost like BR DVD, Toshiba just switches back to producing SD DVD's it's not like they have to tear the place down and start over.
Oh well Toshiba tried to sell a cheap good alternative.
Deron. |
Why is it more expensive?
If its a new movie its probably already filmed? digitally, so it costs nothing more to xfer to dvd than to b/r.
If its an older film, its already made its money bieng sold on dvd, and the original master is just sitting on a shelf costing you storage space. For the price of a b/r transfer and some ad dollars you have a new source of revenue.
If im a dvd production facility, id already be scraping together the dollars to upgrade my facility to b/r. As the studios switch over, theres plenty of work to be done, and dough to be made.
Also the electronics compainies see this as a win win. More hd sources means more hd displays to be sold, and vice versa. |
Why would a BR DVD be more expensive then a SD DVD.
There is probably a million (just kidding, maybe 3 or 5 reasons), but I will just list the ones that come to mind.
1) Copy right, or what ever they call it, they probably pay that to the owners of BR, just like we have to pay extra for DTS in software and other products.
2) Attention to production or making of the film. If you are going to market a film on BR to the videophiles out there, it better be top notch, look killer. We have all heard of the ones that look like crap and that will reflect in the sales of them. I mean you are paying extra for HD, you better be real happy with it.
3) It's harder to stamp out a BR DVD then a SD DVD.
4) The store owners are going to want their take too, you always pay extra for the good stuff.
Deron.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | kal wrote: | Prices on Blu-ray discs will follow the same pattern as DVD: They continue to go lower and lower and more and more are produced. More volume = lower price. Volume will pick up as the war is now over.
Kal |
Volume would have picked up if HD DVD won. Volume to create discounts for BD is a ways off. Until players are <$200, you won't see widespread adoption. No widespread adoption = no lower prices. |
I'm not convinced that volume would have picked up as much if HD DVD won. People just don't seem to understand what HD DVD is.
Yes, volume would/will pick up in general after one side wins as one format is better than two. Maybe faster with HD DVD due to low prices, but maybe faster with Blu-ray due to their better marketing campaign. You have to admit that Toshiba/HD DVD marketing SUCKED. It's basically why they lost (IMHO). They certainly didn't lose due to technical reasons.
I don't know. Knowing how ignorant the general population is, I'm not convinced that adoption of a next-gen HD on disc format would be faster due with lower priced HD DVD players with bad marketing vs. higher priced Blu-ray players with good marketing.
Myself, all I want is the fastest adoption possible to get the largest number of titles available on HD disc. I want HD on disc to replace SD on disc as fast as possible. I think there's limited window of opportunity as people may get more interested in streaming formats (HD or not). People don't care about quality it seems, so it's important to try and get HD on disc to be adopted widely before any format on disc is replaced by crappy compressed downloads. |
As an adside, yesterday's informal Slashdot poll was basically "when are you going to buy a BD player?" For those that don't know, slashdot is a technical geek site. 40,000 votes were cast. 45% answered that they are sill not convinced HD is worth it. 21% said they are holding out for downloads. So, 66% (2/3) of the (technical geek!) respondents have no intention of getting a BD player. The poll results:
http://slashdot.org/pollBooth.pl?qid=1530&aid=-1
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A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| emdawgz1 wrote: | | deronmoped wrote: | You guys talking about low prices on BR DVD's are leaving out the fact that there was a war going on. Now that the war is over will prices still stay low or will they reflect that BR is the only place to get a high definition disc? I mean why even bother selling a disc that is about the same price as a SD DVD. BR DVD's have to be way more expensive to make and market and they can not spread the cost over billions of them like they can on a SD DVD.
I would look back at what BR DVD's sold for when they first came out, before they started reducing prices to be competitive with HD DVD, maybe there is a clue there in what they have to sell them for to make it worth while.
The whole idea behind HD DVD was they were able to use existing SD DVD factories to produce them. No huge start up cost like BR DVD, Toshiba just switches back to producing SD DVD's it's not like they have to tear the place down and start over.
Oh well Toshiba tried to sell a cheap good alternative.
Deron. |
Why is it more expensive? |
Is this a joke or do only care about Sony misinformation?!?!?!? 
| emdawgz1 wrote: | If its a new movie its probably already filmed? digitally, so it costs nothing more to xfer to dvd than to b/r.
...
If im a dvd production facility, id already be scraping together the dollars to upgrade my facility to b/r. As the studios switch over, theres plenty of work to be done, and dough to be made.
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WRONG! The DVD production infrastructure is already in place. There are many competing production facilities. HD DVD was intended to be evolutionary so that these facilities could cheaply retool and make HD DVDs. Not so with BD. You have to throw out your DVD equipment and buy all new expensive equipment to produce the discs. This is why Sony has been the only one producing discs so far. No one else can afford to get into it yet.
Manufacturing tolerances are also higher than on HD DVD and DVD, thus the process needs to be more exact. This also raises the cost. Lastly, because the the first layer is so close to the surface, BD discs are incredibly scratch intolerant. Therefore, they need a scratch resistant coating applied to them--this costs money.
So basically, none of the facilities can afford to jump into BD at the current low volumes, and the cost of manufacture, no matter what the volume becomes, will always excede DVD and HD DVD.
| emdawgz1 wrote: | | Also the electronics compainies see this as a win win. |
You got this one right! HD DVD was fairly priced, so there were not huge margins to be made. BD is about f*cking the consumer so it sells for inflated prices which makes everyone except the consumer happy.
HD VOD and Downloads will be here soon. It is unlikely that BD prices will be at an acceptable level for widespread adoption before that happens. It is very likely that BD will ever catch on the way DVD did. Those that helped BD win may just have killed high quality video/audio on a shiny little disc!
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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You guys are all forgetting the most important reason why BD could/is more expensive than DVD: Because they can charge more for it. It's more about the perceived value and marketing than what it actually costs to replicate. What something costs to build/manufacturer is one of the LEAST important things to the marketing dept. when it comes to pricing things. They will always charge what the customer is willing to pay.
Kal
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | You guys are all forgetting the most important reason why BD could/is more expensive than DVD: Because they can charge more for it. It's more about the perceived value and marketing than what it actually costs to replicate. What something costs to build/manufacturer is one of the LEAST important things to the marketing dept. when it comes to pricing things. They will always charge what the customer is willing to pay.
Kal |
This is true, but the PS3 notwithstanding, there is a minimum they need to get for any product to cover costs.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | You guys are all forgetting the most important reason why BD could/is more expensive than DVD: Because they can charge more for it. |
Hey, I covered that in the post above  :
| Person99 wrote: | | BD is about f*cking the consumer so it sells for inflated prices |
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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jask
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 10187
Location: kamloops BC
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
As an adside, yesterday's informal Slashdot poll was basically "when are you going to buy a BD player?" For those that don't know, slashdot is a technical geek site. 40,000 votes were cast. 45% answered that they are sill not convinced HD is worth it. 21% said they are holding out for downloads. So, 66% (2/3) of the (technical geek!) respondents have no intention of getting a BD player. The poll results:
http://slashdot.org/pollBooth.pl?qid=1530&aid=-1 |
I think this kind of poll better illustrates why HD-DVD is dead than all the BR BS and HD hype.... the consumer needs to need the product,and if the number of homes that have adopted large format HD display devices and input sources is small(still) and people feel that a newer better technology is forthcoming then it is easy to just keep waiting.
People are already talking about VOD and HD downloads even if it is not anywhere near reality,and this means that unless sony can spur adoption,the technology cost are going to stay high. More food for thought, Sony has a long history of smothering what could have been successful technology by monopolizing and micromanaging things to death. 10 Years from now we could be dropping by blockbuster or 7/11 to upload a HD encrypted portable media file,released directly by the studio,not a releasing company or distribution bottleneck. while our still SD neighbors have a pvr slowly filesharing a legal download.
We are a very small minority of the home entertainment market, we all are able to talk about the technology,its current state,history and future direction better than most of the people we know...(or those that sell the current offerings!) we make allowances in our homes and finances for a home theater that most of our friends would consider over the top.In the greater scheme of things,when most consumers do not yet see the need for a HD display- selling HD source or media is not going to be about HUGE volume sales...so, that makes me think that the profits are going to come from price.
Every Joe 6 pack that walks by the BR kiosk at walmart is going to look at the 30$ new release and the 400$ player and keep walking ....over to the 18.99 SD release that will look just as crappy on his tv.
end rant
going to watch HD on my combo player right now.
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MYoung
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 369
Location: Madison, WI
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | | kal wrote: | You have to admit that Toshiba/HD DVD marketing SUCKED. It's basically why they lost (IMHO). They certainly didn't lose due to technical reasons.
Kal |
Kal, I agree…I don't know if you seen the TV ad with Michael Imperioli, it was like he was in his Christopher character from the Sopranos trying to strong arm you to buy one….It was pathetic!
Mike |
What the hell? It was a good commercial!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB3KA2GVgis
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| jask wrote: |
People are already talking about VOD and HD downloads even if it is not anywhere near reality |
While you make some good points and I agree with most. I don't get this one. I'm getting HD VOD this year. It has already been released in some markets:
http://www.tvpredictions.com/verizonhd120507.htm
By 2009, it should be getting all the movies that come to BD. I just don't see how Joe and Jane Sixpack are going to think BD is worth it on ther 55" DLP RPTV viewed from 10' away.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:23 am Post subject: |
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I just checked today and you can get a top of the line HD-A35 player for like $180. delivered now, WOW. I wonder who is taking the biggest hit here, do the retailers actually just suck up the loss over what the MSRP was before toshiba caved in?
For $180. that is one hell of a player, even if just to up-scale regular DVD's.
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mike calcott
Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 307
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:31 am Post subject: |
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In Australia when dvd players were first released we were selling them for$1795 now we are selling from $49 the same will happen with all new technology its only a matter of time until the price of BD drops
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deronmoped
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1154
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| mike calcott wrote: | | In Australia when dvd players were first released we were selling them for$1795 now we are selling from $49 the same will happen with all new technology its only a matter of time until the price of BD drops |
Too bad SD DVD's did not drop as much as the players did. If a DVD player dropped from $1795.00 to $49.00, I wonder what a simalar drop in DVD prices would be? 79 cents for new releases 
Deron.
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Tinman
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Carson City Nevada
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| deronmoped wrote: | | mike calcott wrote: | | In Australia when dvd players were first released we were selling them for$1795 now we are selling from $49 the same will happen with all new technology its only a matter of time until the price of BD drops |
Too bad SD DVD's did not drop as much as the players did. If a DVD player dropped from $1795.00 to $49.00, I wonder what a simalar drop in DVD prices would be? 79 cents for new releases
Deron. |
Yeah... and some new releases aren't even worth THAT. 
Marc
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Person99"] | emdawgz1 wrote: | infrastructure is already in place. There are many competing production facilities. HD DVD was intended to be evolutionary so that these facilities could cheaply retool and make HD DVDs. Not so with BD. You have to throw out your DVD equipment and buy all new expensive equipment to produce the discs. This is why Sony has been the only one producing discs so far. No one else can afford to get into it yet.
Manufacturing tolerances are also higher than on HD DVD and DVD, thus the process needs to be more exact. This also raises the cost. Lastly, because the the first layer is so close to the surface, BD discs are incredibly scratch intolerant. Therefore, they need a scratch resistant coating applied to them--this costs money.
So basically, none of the facilities can afford to jump into BD at the current low volumes, and the cost of manufacture, no matter what the volume becomes, will always excede DVD and HD DVD.
| emdawgz1 wrote: | | Also the electronics compainies see this as a win win. |
You got this one right! HD DVD was fairly priced, so there were not huge margins to be made. BD is about f*cking the consumer so it sells for inflated prices which makes everyone except the consumer happy.
HD VOD and Downloads will be here soon. It is unlikely that BD prices will be at an acceptable level for widespread adoption before that happens. It is very likely that BD will ever catch on the way DVD did. Those that helped BD win may just have killed high quality video/audio on a shiny little disc! |
Maybe i missed understood the question.
Is B/R production more expensive than dvd? YES It should be
Why is it sooo much more expensive than HD-dvd?
I dont mean from a consumer pov but from the production side?
If i owned a DVD production facility id be racing to find the capital to INVEST in upgrading to b/r.
Theres a TON of new production out there and the quicker im able to produce them reliably, the quicker im turning a profit.
BTW if im already producing dvd's why do i scrap my existing production lines? Why not ADD ???
The difference as i see it, is that Hd-dvd was evoloutionary, B/R is REVOLOUTIONARY.
Revoloutions cost money  But we the early adopters are in for the big bucks, it will reach consumer levels sooner than you think.
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deronmoped
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1154
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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"BD discs are incredibly scratch intolerant. Therefore, they need a scratch resistant coating applied to them--this costs money".
Anyone ever have a BR DVD that would not work because of scratches? I've had plenty of CD's and DVD's that did not work correctly because of scratches and then I had some that you would think would never work because of all the scratches, that worked fine. If a BR DVD is more fragile then SD DVD's, I would expect people to be less likely to buy them. A few scratches and you have to throw the disc out? That would rule out most people buying them as soon as they found out that you have to treat them with "kid gloves".
Deron.
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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It would also make them impractical for rental. Regular DVDs get trashed fast enough already.
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Tinman
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Carson City Nevada
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| deronmoped wrote: | "BD discs are incredibly scratch intolerant. Therefore, they need a scratch resistant coating applied to them--this costs money".
Anyone ever have a BR DVD that would not work because of scratches? I've had plenty of CD's and DVD's that did not work correctly because of scratches and then I had some that you would think would never work because of all the scratches, that worked fine. If a BR DVD is more fragile then SD DVD's, I would expect people to be less likely to buy them. A few scratches and you have to throw the disc out? That would rule out most people buying them as soon as they found out that you have to treat them with "kid gloves".
Deron. |
That's why BR specs included a caddy. The broadcast versions all have caddies.
These discs are too fragile for most people.
Marc
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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out of the 2 dozen HD discs I rented, only 1 or 2 had a hang-up I had to skip over, about the same as regular DVD's. I'm still pretty depressed that a wonderful product like HD DVD is going away due to some piece of sh*t competing format from Sony.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Tinman wrote: | | deronmoped wrote: | "BD discs are incredibly scratch intolerant. Therefore, they need a scratch resistant coating applied to them--this costs money".
Anyone ever have a BR DVD that would not work because of scratches? I've had plenty of CD's and DVD's that did not work correctly because of scratches and then I had some that you would think would never work because of all the scratches, that worked fine. If a BR DVD is more fragile then SD DVD's, I would expect people to be less likely to buy them. A few scratches and you have to throw the disc out? That would rule out most people buying them as soon as they found out that you have to treat them with "kid gloves".
Deron. |
That's why BR specs included a caddy. The broadcast versions all have caddies.
These discs are too fragile for most people.
Marc |
You know, that coating was developed late in the game. Sony originally thought that the consumer version would have to go to market in a caddy.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| deronmoped wrote: | "BD discs are incredibly scratch intolerant. Therefore, they need a scratch resistant coating applied to them--this costs money".
Anyone ever have a BR DVD that would not work because of scratches? I've had plenty of CD's and DVD's that did not work correctly because of scratches and then I had some that you would think would never work because of all the scratches, that worked fine. If a BR DVD is more fragile then SD DVD's, I would expect people to be less likely to buy them. A few scratches and you have to throw the disc out? That would rule out most people buying them as soon as they found out that you have to treat them with "kid gloves".
Deron. |
Did you read the post you quoted? The data layer is .1 mm from the surface on a BD. A minor scratch will totally screw with the laser and make it impossible to read. HD DVD is .6 mm from the surface--therefore more scratch tolerant. So, BD had to do something to protect the disc. The original plan was that every disc would be in a plastic caddy similar to a 3.5" floppy disc. However, before they went to market, a company invented a coating that could be applied to the discs that would protect them. So, the caddy was not needed. Every BD has this coating so every BD is scratch resistent--problem solved. This is why you don't hear about a bunch of scratched discs that won't play. This is the coating I talked about.
However, the fact remains that BD requires this coating, HD DVD did not, and this contributes to the higher cost of BD production--my post was about why BDs cost more to produce than HD DVDs.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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