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Elaine Benes
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1416
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | Mark, I'm curious and I have no idea so I'm asking. Why would astig be required after swapping the tube if the magnets are siliconed and I was careful to place everything back where it was on the old tube? Is the tube not a "dumb" device which is dependent on the position of the coils and magnets? Are tubes that much different from one to another? I just want to understand as much about this as I can before I start tearing things apart. Thanks to both Elaine and yourself for the input thus far. |
Tubes are different from one another, whether they are "that much different" is variable.
Do the swap, fire it up and have a look. *Likely* you'll have to adjust mechanical astig to get the replacement as sharp as it can be, but performing mechanical astig *can* be difficult and time consuming.
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Elaine Benes wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | Mark, I'm curious and I have no idea so I'm asking. Why would astig be required after swapping the tube if the magnets are siliconed and I was careful to place everything back where it was on the old tube? Is the tube not a "dumb" device which is dependent on the position of the coils and magnets? Are tubes that much different from one to another? I just want to understand as much about this as I can before I start tearing things apart. Thanks to both Elaine and yourself for the input thus far. |
Tubes are different from one another, whether they are "that much different" is variable.
Do the swap, fire it up and have a look. *Likely* you'll have to adjust mechanical astig to get the replacement as sharp as it can be, but performing mechanical astig *can* be difficult and time consuming. |
Elaine, what if I removed the tube with the magnets and coils intact and simply plugged the harnesses into the new projector and seated the tube into the CRT board? Since it's a "mechanical" adjustment rather than "electrical" would it not just perform the same way it did in the donor projector?
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Elaine Benes
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1416
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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That's exactly what I'd do, but I'm not a certified/trained tech, I'm just another hobbyist, like you, just at it longer...
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Elaine Benes wrote: | | That's exactly what I'd do, but I'm not a certified/trained tech, I'm just another hobbyist, like you, just at it longer... |
Well, it just seems the most logical and easiest way to do it but that does not mean it's right. I appreciate your help!
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah to that Dropzone, just swap the whole shebang, coils/magnets and all.
Then using the XG's electronic astig for the centre zone, you'll be able to get it good enough.
It's not ideal, and it's not what I'd do, but it's probably what an NEC tech would have done in the field.
Elaine, I understand what you mean about the colours, I can't imagine why it's more difficult than any other CRT, the controls are the same. You need a HCFR colourimeter, they make it easy 
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Elaine Benes
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1416
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: |
Elaine, I understand what you mean about the colours, I can't imagine why it's more difficult than any other CRT, the controls are the same. You need a HCFR colourimeter, they make it easy :) |
I think it may have to do with the degree of control the NEC provides, its much finer than most.
I have an XG135LC currently that I'm playing with, and now have a Philips PM-5639 colorimeter that I didn't have in the past. Getting D6500 using the Philips was very simple and easy, took about 15 minutes. This is WAAAAYYYYY different than what I remember when doing NEC's in the past without the aid of such a good colorimeter.
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:20 am Post subject: |
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If you really want to swap the tubes don't be scared by people here. I had never even owned a projector and then I picked up an NEC 110 with toasted tubes and three new or slightly used tubes to swap with. I found some pretty good directions somewhere...(can't find them now!) and did it in about 1 hour.
I have been using the projector with new tubes for about 300 hours I would bet and I still don't have ASTIG done but by placing the magnets in the exact same position relative to each other and relative to the front and back of the tube it turned out pretty well.
I know it can get better but once I get sick of what I have I will start to look into getting the astig all fixed. I just don't like messing with it when it is on. 
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| greg_mitch wrote: |
I know it can get better but once I get sick of what I have I will start to look into getting the astig all fixed. I just don't like messing with it when it is on. |
Yeah, that's the scary part! I guess I will give it a go. What's the worst that could happen? I end up with two projectors that either don't work or look like crap. Either way, I would rather troubleshoot and learn through trial and error than go back to digital...
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kschmit2
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1141
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | greg_mitch wrote: |
[...] I just don't like messing with it when it is on. |
[...]What's the worst that could happen?[...] |
 Death!
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I'm committed now. I picked up the 852 this afternoon and it's sitting on my floor. First questions:
It has HD-144-CLEAR lenses. My XG-110 has HD-144N lenses. Which should I use? Not sure but I think the HD-144N are color corrected while the clear is well...clear. ???
LOTS of inputs set up in this thing. Should I clear them out or leave them for now. I think maybe I should leave them for the time being.
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dbaisey
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 821
Location: Southern Cal LA / Seattle WA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:48 am Post subject: |
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Don't clear anything until you can run the projector and take a good look at it for a few days or even longer. If anything move the entries back to free up signal lines.
Take note on the grayscale and tracking. If you know the owner see what he was feeding it while your checking it out. Dont know why it doesnt have the color corrected lenses that came on it new but might ask about that also. Doug
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:54 am Post subject: |
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Crap, I'm not getting far. I reversed the scan per the manual as it's sitting on the floor for now and I keep getting an error message when I try to change the projection orientation in the menus. The dummy plug wont go on exactly as in the picture in the manual. If I turn it 180 degrees it goes right on but if I try to slide it on the other way, exactly as it is shown in the manual, the pins are too far apart and I would have to bend and stretch it to fit. Even then I can't get it and I don't want to hurt anything. The picture is correct on screen but I have dual images of the menu on screen. One that is correct and then a backwards mirror image on top and to the left of that. What am I doing wrong?
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 3068
Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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You are doing something simple wrong.
The dummy plug swaps from top to bottom and turns around as well I think. The instructions are pretty clear.
I would NOT turn it on unless this was correct.
I have seen HD-144 and HD-144N labelled lenses before, but there were identical. Both sets were filtered. Look into the tubes with a flashlight. If red is red and green is green they are filtered, because all tubes are white. $1 says they are filtered.
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Update. Up late last night messing with this thing. I finally got the dummy plug on the way the manual shows but it was really a squeeze and did not seem right to me. For all I know it may not even matter how it goes on as long as its on the correct line on the board. Still had the crazy mirror image menus which after closer inspection is actually two different menus. For instance, if I pull up the adjust menu and then the settings menu they are overlapping each other onscreen with one looking correct and the other turned backwards. This is not visible on the raster but only onscreen. Out of frustration I threw down the remote for a few minutes and walked away. When I came back I picked up what I thought was the remote I was using. Turned out I had picked up my other XG remote which is a different model. I hit the adjust button and the menu came up clear as a bell and worked as normal. Why would using this remote make a difference?
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark_A_W wrote: | You are doing something simple wrong.
The dummy plug swaps from top to bottom and turns around as well I think. The instructions are pretty clear.
I would NOT turn it on unless this was correct.
I have seen HD-144 and HD-144N labelled lenses before, but there were identical. Both sets were filtered. Look into the tubes with a flashlight. If red is red and green is green they are filtered, because all tubes are white. $1 says they are filtered. |
Mark, you are correct about the plug moving from one end to the other and turning it seems the most logical way and makes it slide right on. However, if you look at the manual and the shape of the holes where the wires go in through the top, they show it turned in the same direction regardless of projection orientation. I may turn it back around now and see what happens. See my post above about the remote weirdness...
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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After I got the menus working correctly I started checking out the wear on the tubes. I knew the green was pretty toasty but the red and blue appear to have almost no wear when looking at the phosphur with the projector off. However, with the unit running and projecting an image it looks like I have a wear pattern near the top of the screen on all colors. If I turn green off the wear still shows on screen through the red and blue. What I see on screen appears much more obvious than just looking at the tube faces. I was hoping that the red and blue would be good but if this is truly a wear pattern then I can't live with that. Looks like I will be swapping all of the tubes now. This is disappointing as I would never imagine that the wear would be that obvious on tubes that are so new.
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | After I got the menus working correctly I started checking out the wear on the tubes. I knew the green was pretty toasty but the red and blue appear to have almost no wear when looking at the phosphur with the projector off. However, with the unit running and projecting an image it looks like I have a wear pattern near the top of the screen on all colors. If I turn green off the wear still shows on screen through the red and blue. What I see on screen appears much more obvious than just looking at the tube faces. I was hoping that the red and blue would be good but if this is truly a wear pattern then I can't live with that. Looks like I will be swapping all of the tubes now. This is disappointing as I would never imagine that the wear would be that obvious on tubes that are so new. |
I could be way off but if someone used too much RGB point correction for the input it can give the appearance of tube wear when in actually the tubes are fine. You might try normizing point correcting just to be sure. I was fooled by that once.
Mike
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Doing HD since the last century!
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| MikeEby wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | After I got the menus working correctly I started checking out the wear on the tubes. I knew the green was pretty toasty but the red and blue appear to have almost no wear when looking at the phosphur with the projector off. However, with the unit running and projecting an image it looks like I have a wear pattern near the top of the screen on all colors. If I turn green off the wear still shows on screen through the red and blue. What I see on screen appears much more obvious than just looking at the tube faces. I was hoping that the red and blue would be good but if this is truly a wear pattern then I can't live with that. Looks like I will be swapping all of the tubes now. This is disappointing as I would never imagine that the wear would be that obvious on tubes that are so new. |
I could be way off but if someone used too much RGB point correction for the input it can give the appearance of tube wear when in actually the tubes are fine. You might try normizing point correcting just to be sure. I was fooled by that once.
Mike |
Good thinking Mike, I will give that a try tonight and report back. This unit was supposedly installed by an ISF technician with only minor tweaking by the owner so I would be surprised if there is a lot of point but maybe. I hope it's something that simple as it would be a shame if these tubes are not good. I had to practically put my face on top of the tube face to see the slightest hint of wear on red and blue but once I saw some it was more apparent but nothing like what I'm seeing on screen.
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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I could be way off but if someone used too much RGB point correction for the input it can give the appearance of tube wear when in actually the tubes are fine. You might try normizing point correcting just to be sure. I was fooled by that once.
Mike[/quote]
Well, it looks like I'm out of the woods for now. Thanks so much for the suggestion about point Mike! I had encountered something similar before but just wasn't thinking of it this time. I should have listened to Doug in the back of my mind saying "normalize the point"! It must have had a ton of it because everything looks good now. Of course, the green does have wear which I knew already but it really is not that bad on screen. Oh yeah, the remote is working now as well! Very weird.
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, what an idiot I am. I think I discovered why I was having problems with the menus. Note to self: unplug the currently installed projector before beginning work on the new one. The XG-110 is mounted on the ceiling. The XG-852 is on the floor directly underneath it. From the very beginning, since hitting the power button I have been controlling both projectors at the same time. Switching back and forth in the menus trying to figure out why one menu was upside down and one right side up. Sitting on the floor beside one noisy projector I could not hear the other noisy projector above my head. Of course, only one projector had video running to it so I had a picture from the unit on the floor and then menus from both. Luckily I did not screw anything up with the ceiling mounted unit other than reversing the vertical scan in the settings menu all the while thinking that I was controlling the unit on the floor.
Last night I played around with the 852 a bit and decided that after expanding the amplitude to fit my screen that the green tube wear is not going to work. I can't stay within the wear pattern and still maintain my current screen size and mounting location. Too bad but I figured this would be the case as this projector was obviously set up within spec for throw distance and never maximized the raster size. Fortunately, the red and blue are in good shape and from what I could see there is no wear showing up on screen from these tubes. This brings me back to my original plan which was to swap the green from my 110 into the 852. After looking at tube replacement procedures I'm now leaning more towards doing a tube swap only instead of transferring all of the magnetics still on the tube from one projector to another. If the 852 is indeed a more stable running and better overall machine then I don't want to introduce parts from the 110 to it if I can help it. I am concerned about being able to place the magnetics back in the correct positions and having to do mechanical astig adjustments.
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