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paw
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: Arvada, CO
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | I'll just offer my own experience as a fairly educated HD consumer.
I've been an HD-DVD supporter all along. I think it sucks that Sony is forcing its inferior and DRM-laden format down the industry's throats for its own benefit. I have an HD-DVD player, a Toshiba HD-A2. I'd love to have more HD content. I haven't bought a BD player because they're so much more expensive.
And I have pretty much decided not to buy any more HD-DVD disks, even used. (KennyG's sale was seriously tempting but I resisted.  Though those DeepDiscount and B&N specials may suck me in for a few...) It seems clear to me that HD-DVD is dying rapidly. I don't intend to keep two different players around forever, so I don't want to build up a library of HD-DVD titles. I'll rent a few HD-DVD titles until I cough up the $$ for a PS3 or whatever player.
I don't like it, but that's reality.
That's the conclusion of a pretty well-informed HT enthusiast. Combine that with Sony's obvious victory in the marketing arena that hits the mass market (Best Buy, Circuit City, Netflix, etc are all pushing Blu-Ray MUCH harder than HD-DVD, if they're offering HD-DVD at all) and it's clear where this is going.
Sony has won. HD-DVD is dead or at least dying. |
Well said Gary. Those are my thoughts to. We could also go into technical superiority of HD DVD vs Blu Ray but it's a moot point. My biggest disappointment is the original topic of this thread. Now even renting HD DVD discs will be difficult if not impossible. I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop from Block Buster.
Those HD DVD sales by Deep Discount are tempting but I hate to think about triple dipping on discs.
If someone ask me today, what format to choose, I'd have to say Blu Ray. Ouch! That hurts.
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Aubrey
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paw
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: Arvada, CO
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | garyfritz wrote: | | Sony has won. HD-DVD is dead or at least dying. |
TRAITOR! ............................. 
Theres'a few movies on BR I would like to watch, show me a $99. player and I will bite. |
Well I hope we get to those $99 Blu Ray players before your next big 0 b-day. 
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Aubrey
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voodoo7869
Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 193
Location: Chicago, IL USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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by the way drm is hacked. so that is not an issue. jut thought you should know.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| paw wrote: | | draganm wrote: | | Theres'a few movies on BR I would like to watch, show me a $99. player and I will bite. |
Well I hope we get to those $99 Blu Ray players before your next big 0 b-day. |
LOL, Black Ballons and a Sony player, that will be a depressing day indeed.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| MYoung wrote: | | I also have to wonder what would have happened if Toshiba and Microsoft had gone in to make the PS3's Blu-ray capability irrelevant by making the Xbox 360 add-on drive super cheap, considering there were many more Xbox 360s out there compared to PS3s a year ago. |
I think to have an effect they would have had to include an HD-DVD drive standard in all Xbox360, the same way that Sony made a Blu-ray drive standard in all PS3's.
This would have been been for Microsoft as it would have driven price up quite a bit, and Sony is definitely more interested in Blu-ray than Microsoft in interested in HD-DVD.
Add-ons never work as well as most people don't know or care. If the add-on was only $50 instead of $150, I'm not sure it would have mattered much. The die-hard HD-DVD supporters spent $200 without any problems. It's the Moms and Pops that wouldn't spend the extra no matter how small the amount.
| Quote: | | Of course, Blu-ray still has DVD to contend with. I don't think people are going to go for $20 to $40 movies for a difference that might not be evident to them unless they have a big screen HDTV. |
I agree. In general HD on disc has an uphill battle I think. I tihnk most of the sales will come from marketing. This is the one time where I want the marketing to lie and mis-lead as I want HD on disc to become as cheap and plentiful as regular DVD.
I would really like to be able to go back to buying Blu-ray discs used for under $8-$10/each, the way I used to do with DVD. And for the same number of titles. That's going to take time.
| Quote: | | If HD DVD dies it will be interesting to see where Blu-ray hardware and software prices go. |
Down only I would imagine. I cannot see how people would accept prices going up. I really don't see the manufacturers and studios doing that. With less confusion with 2 formats around, more Blu-ray discs will be sold so replication costs will [should] go down.
| Quote: | | We have yet to see a decent, future-proof, and affordable stand-alone Blu-ray player. That seems pretty odd to me. That's what's keeping me from going purple right now. I suppose older Blu-ray players will drop in price once Profile 2.0 comes out. Of course, when will that happen and how much will those players be? |
Prices always seem to be coming down. Newer generations do more than the last and at lower prices. Prices on used players get pretty low each time a new generation comes out. If you don't care about profile 2.0, pick up a used profile 1.0 or 1.1 player for cheap once 2.0 comes out. 99% of people (myself included) couldn't care less about profile 2.0. The movies will all play, you just may be missing some of the more advanced interactive special features.
Kal
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | Quote: | | If HD DVD dies it will be interesting to see where Blu-ray hardware and software prices go. |
Down only I would imagine. I cannot see how people would accept prices going up. I really don't see the manufacturers and studios doing that. With less confusion with 2 formats around, more Blu-ray discs will be sold so replication costs will [should] go down.Kal |
it's this optimisitc, pie-in-the-sky view on things that makes Kal such an easy going Moderator. If only the real Sony corp. wasn't so Evil this might even come true.
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Tinman
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Carson City Nevada
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, and according to the manufacturers and studios, people have decided. If you look at the sales figures for both formats the population decided Blu-ray.
Kal |
I find it difficult to believe that "the people" (most of which are broke and loosing their houses) would stand in front of 2 HD players, picture being equal, and "choose" the one that costs twice as much or more.
Seriously, who are they kidding? I'm no fan of Sony these days, but had their players hit the $249 point first, I'd have bought it instead. So would ANY Walmart shopper. You don't go there to spend MORE money.
But alas..... it really doesn't matter. Kudos to Sony for pulling this one off. They deserve it. Toshiba didn't exactly TRY to advertise HD-DVD.
Marc
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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lyd
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 390
Location: Lake Mills, Wi
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Tinman wrote: | | I find it difficult to believe that "the people" (most of which are broke and loosing their houses) |
One has to at least hope that those are not the people buying either format. If they are buying high definition disc players in that situation, then their judgement is already demonstrably quite poor, and I don't think you can make any assumptions about what they will perceive as a better value.
lyd
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de gustibus non disputandum
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| cmjohnson wrote: | | DRM DOESN'T MATTER ON A READ ONLY FORMAT. Not unless you're intending to PIRATE it. |
NOT true. There are perfectly legitimate reasons to want to make copies of a disk that YOU OWN:
* Make backup copies in case your original gets damaged or lost
* Let your kids play the copied version (on a burned DVD or off the HD) so they don't ruin the original
* Archive movies for use on a movie server
It's also very useful (and IMHO quite legitimate) to time-shift rentals by a day or two.
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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And here's YET ANOTHER nail in the coffin: Wal-Mart is dropping HD-DVD and will carry only Blu-Ray by June.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23186582/
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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MYoung
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 369
Location: Madison, WI
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Tinman wrote: |
I find it difficult to believe that "the people" (most of which are broke and loosing their houses) would stand in front of 2 HD players, picture being equal, and "choose" the one that costs twice as much or more.
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Marc, therein lies the truth. "The people" haven't chosen a HDM format.
I'll stop being bitter once the Blu-ray stand-alone player quality reaches that of the Toshiba HD DVD players for a $200 price tag and $15 Blu-ray titles. I'm not so convinced that's around the corner as much as Sony has forked over to help win the format war. They want their investment to pay-off!
For everyone hating on HD DVD and gloating that they chose correctly, Blu-ray has debts to HD DVD. Had there not been HD DVD would all Blu-ray movies be MPEG2?
Maybe Toshiba will make a combo player! Ha, ha!
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GEBrown
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 729
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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Any other insights into this statement?
Toshiba will build BluRay players? (That would at least give some of us hope of an affordable BluRay or dual format player)
Or Toshiba will simply wave the white flag and disappear into the woodwork?
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | cmjohnson wrote: | | DRM DOESN'T MATTER ON A READ ONLY FORMAT. Not unless you're intending to PIRATE it. |
NOT true. There are perfectly legitimate reasons to want to make copies of a disk that YOU OWN:
* Make backup copies in case your original gets damaged or lost
* Let your kids play the copied version (on a burned DVD or off the HD) so they don't ruin the original
* Archive movies for use on a movie server
It's also very useful (and IMHO quite legitimate) to time-shift rentals by a day or two. |
Not to mention how much more we're all paying for the equipment solely because of the %@$%^^$ bull**** DRM:
- We need a $150-500 'shady' device to get the content to our analog projectors, because the high-resolution video isn't allowed 'in the open'.
- We need a new receiver to get the high-resolution audio, because it isn't allowed 'in the open'. My 2-year old $1000 receiver won't cut because it doesn't have HDMI. Why do I need HDMI? DRM.
There are also licensing fees on every piece of equipment you buy and every piece of media you buy or rent that go to the companies' DRM technologies that all serve to make the equipment and content more difficult and less reliable to use. HDCP handshake issues, anybody?
There's more crap too, but I just can't think of them right now.
SC
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lyd
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 390
Location: Lake Mills, Wi
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | cmjohnson wrote: | Who really CARES about DRM on Blu-Ray?
I'm not out to COPY Blu-Ray discs! I'm not out to copy even regular DVDs or even ordinary CDs!
And I'd venture to guess that most of you aren't, either.
I buy the movie on Blu-Ray, I put it in my Blu-Ray player, I hit play, I watch the movie, whenever I want. That is PRECISELY
what I want it to do, and nothing else is required.
DRM DOESN'T MATTER ON A READ ONLY FORMAT. Not unless you're intending to PIRATE it.
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Exactly right, but I think the issue is a control/freedom thing. People want to be in control of the content they've purchased and not allow it to be revoked.
I'm basically with you, as I have absolutely no interest in pirating the movies. But I can see how people may not like DRM as it puts control in someone else's hands. Maybe I'm naive but I like to think that the control will be fairly 'loose' since if they tighten things too much (ie: start to annoy people) people will not buy. DRM (IMHO) should be completely invisible to the end user.
Kal |
Good grief, Kal, they are already annoying people! And thanks to the DMCA in combination with that DRM, I am breaking the law every time I watch a movie on my projector, despite the fact that I purchased that movie, just because I choose to use a digital connection from an older video card. (Or every time I have to rip something to disk and munge it around because player support isn't yet there for still more DRM, etc, etc.).
I find the option of either buying more hardware -- the capabilities of which will be dictated to the manufacturers by the content producers, rather than driven by the wants and needs of honest customers -- or doing without if I want to obey the law to be pretty damned annoying.
lyd
EDIT: not to mention the things I can't play at all. Now that's what I call annoying.
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de gustibus non disputandum
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:24 am Post subject: |
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Firesale maybe but check out these prices. You could pay for your players quickly with the savings on disks.
http://hddvdboxsets.com/hddvd3-HD_DVD_Movies.html
Mike
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Last edited by MikeEby on Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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deronmoped
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1154
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:51 am Post subject: |
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Something better happen pretty soon or BR and HD DVD will be dead formats. These companies are probably losing money on the players and software, what do they sale one player for every 10,000 SD DVD players sold and one HD or BR disc per 100,000 SD DVD's sold. I think the idea was to come up with something that would sell well and make lots of money and it's just not happening. By the time they have this mess straightened out technology will have made this format old news. It will not be long before anybody will have to bother to get out of their PJ's to go rent or buy a HD movie when you can download it. That is where the real money is at, no factory to print discs, no large expensive distribution network...
You guys buying this format and building a new library will soon find it was a waste of money, just like you old SD DVD library you threw out in favor of the new stuff. I would only rent because in a couple of years it will be on to the next best thing.
Deron.
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| deronmoped wrote: | Something better happen pretty soon or BR and HD DVD will be dead formats. These companies are probably losing money on the players and software, what do they sale one player for every 10,000 SD DVD players sold and one HD or BR disc per 100,000 SD DVD's sold. I think the idea was to come up with something that would sell well and make lots of money and it's just not happening. By the time they have this mess straightened out technology will have made this format old news. It will not be long before anybody will have to bother to get out of their PJ's to go rent or buy a HD movie when you can download it. That is where the real money is at, no factory to print discs, no large expensive distribution network...
You guys buying this format and building a new library will soon find it was a waste of money, just like you old SD DVD library you threw out in favor of the new stuff. I would only rent because in a couple of years it will be on to the next best thing.
Deron. |
OR
You can be a pack rat collector like me. I don't care what format is what. I'll watch it. I have movied on 8mm tape, Beta, audio cassete ( cool little toy ) the list goes on.
I had CED video disk for a while too. It was cool cleaning that player up and watching the movies. I traded it for a sh!t load of LD's.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| deronmoped wrote: | | Something better happen pretty soon or BR and HD DVD will be dead formats. |
None of us have a crystal ball, but I think you're way off the mark, Deron. I think it's going to be years before downloading HD movies in any quantity is a viable option. Apple has owned the online music download market for 2 or 3 years now and has sold over a BILLION songs, yet CDs are plenty healthy (though certainly declining, they're declining very slowly.)
If online HD downloads take over optical media somehow in the next few years, it will be at the expense of picture and sound quality. Not only will it suck compared to BD and HD, it won't even be the quality we're used to with satellite and cable. So, you better hope you're not right.
SC
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