CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[sj64]

Hi,
A few days ago, I finally got my Sony 1252 back from being repaired. I had shipped it interstate to a crt repair technician. However there's a problem with the blue. It occasionally jumps to the left and jitters!

The initial problem that caused me to send the pj to be fixed, was the projector wasn't displaying an image, though the raster was lighting up, and a V-stop 08 error code was on the side.
The repair guy told me that when he first received the pj, he reflashed the rom and that fixed the image problem straight away. However he then found that there was a problem with the blue. I can't remember exactly what he said, but something about it not holding the signal. Eventually when he did get it fixed and contacted me, he said that amongst a few issues, the main problem was that the vph chip was faulty (I think specifically for the blue's processing) and he had to get a new vph video ic chip. It was quite pricey and he explained that it was a genuine Sony part he had to order from Sydney.

When I got the pj back, I had the lenses off the first time I powered it up and noticed straight away there was a problem with the blue. Over the last three days I've found that it happens mainly when I first switch the pj on. The green and red are perfect, but the blue raster has shifted significantly to the left and slightly down, far enough that 1/5 of the raster is off the edge of the phosphor. The blue is also a bit 'shaky and noisy'.
This lasts for about 15-30sec before the blue suddenly snaps back into place. Then for the next few minutes it might jump out off place once or twice for just a fraction of a second.
(I'd yell out to my partner, "Look there! it did it again." And she'd look up at the screen and go "What!? I don't see anything wrong.")
After this there would be no more problems for the rest of the session. However this morning after having the pj on for a good 5mins, there was a jump on the blue that lasted about a minute. Changing to blank inputs on the pj, and changing resolutions on the HTPC - had no effect.

Does anyone know what the problem might be? I intend to contact the repair guy on Monday. Though I wanted to see what people on this forum thought first.

'regards
S.


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p.s. Fixed this. Adding details of fix in a post at the end of this thread.
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[ecrabb]

He 'reflashed' the ROM? In 5+ years of reading about and screwing with 12xx's, I've never heard of anyone having to reflash the ROM.

The 'jumping to the left' sounds like horizontal deflection - which is the E-board. Standing behind the projector while floor-mounted, it's the board on the right you can see when you take the top cover off.
http://www.curtpalme.com/Sony125x_Layout1.shtm

I'm not sure why a good tech would spend a lot of money to get parts directly from Sony when Curt probably has whole boards in stock he could have shipped for less money than a single component from sony. How much did you have to pay for the repair, if you don't mind me asking?

SC

[Dave Lister]

Was the bloke in Melbourne and named Steve?

[sj64]

Dave Lister-
Yes and Yes. The one and only. If I remember correctly, a few months ago when I mentioned sending my pj to Steve for repair - It was you who mentioned having had problems with him.
Well, it did take a long time and a fair amount of 'chasing up' from me to get him to send my pj back after fixing it. The repair itself also taking much longer than expected. Despite all this I still would have said, 'All's well that ends well.' (Though towards the end, I was starting to think about what my legal options were.)
Except now it seems the repair wasn't fully finished. I've emailed him today about it, and I'm waiting to see what he says.

Ecrabb-
Aside from courier costs, he charged me for 5 hours of labour at $50/hr which is fair enough.
I asked Curt about the cost of vph ic chips. What Steve charged me for it, whilst at the top end, was within the range that Curt offered up.


I'll let you guys know how it goes.

SJ

[tse]

Sometimes problems like yours are hard to nail down because it doesn't always do it. The problem that you are having could be caused by something as simple as the connection (or lack of) to the deflection yoke. A little corrosion on the yoke connector can cause a left jump and jitters. Try cleaning the contacts. It will either fix it or not. Can't hurt.

Scott

[Mark_A_W]

Reseat all the boards in the card cage between the tubes.

That usually fixes image jitters on a 12xx.



FYI, the VPH video amps are not made by Sony. You do want a genuine one, but they are made by Sanyo (from memory). And yes, they are quite pricey.


And quite honestly, you paid money to fix a 1252?? Umm...ahh.. you can buy a NEC PG Plus/Xtra for next to nothing these days...don't spend much on a 1252, it's only worth a couple of hundred dollars...

If you want to keep running the 1252, do yourself a huge favour and pick up a working spare - if your current one has good tubes.

[mike calcott]

Show me where I can get a PG Plus/Xtra for next to nothing, I want one if they are that cheap

[Curt Palme]

The catch is, the G and B tubes are usually burnt to get one dirt cheap. NEw tubes are about $700 USD each FOB Georgia, USA.

I agree, flashing the ROM is a crock, never had to do that, and I've had probably 100-150 12XX sets through here. Try reseating modules as suggested, gently flex the large boards under the top cover, swap yoke connectors to see if you can get the problem to switch to another tube to narrow the cause down.

[Curt Palme]

The catch is, the G and B tubes are usually burnt to get one dirt cheap. NEw tubes are about $700 USD each FOB Georgia, USA.

I agree, flashing the ROM is a crock, never had to do that, and I've had probably 100-150 12XX sets through here. Try reseating modules as suggested, gently flex the large boards under the top cover, swap yoke connectors to see if you can get the problem to switch to another tube to narrow the cause down.

[sj64]

Hi, thanks for the advice guys.
Curt when you say swap the yoke connectors, you mean those 3 connectors that are at the top of the 'E' board just under the Screen and Focus controls? (labeled as 'H Yoke Connectors' in your 125x/127x layout guide) If I did swap the blue with the green and then found that the green was having the problem instead, or no change - what would that tell you?

I'm a bit torn though, I'm not sure how much I want to do inside the projector.
On the one hand I really want to just be able to sit back and enjoy watching movies, I'd love it if this problem could be fixed by doing something as simple as reseating the cpu boards. And before I spent all this money on the repairs I wouldn't have hesitated to do so.
On the other hand, Steve is largely obligated to fix this problem. But who's to know he doesn't read these forums. If he found out that I was tinkering around inside the pj, he might try saying that I've 'interfered' with his repairs and that removes any obligation on his behalf.

Haven't heard from Steve yet. When I do get through to him, I might tell him that before we start considering repair options, that I could try the suggestions that people have made in this thread.

'cheers
SJ.

[Mark_A_W]

Reseating boards isn't tinkering with his repairs.

You should always reseat the boards after it's been shipped.


As for a cheap Xtra - try Ebay first.....after that it's who you know

I know of a pair that cost a carton of beer, I gave one to my brother, another mate donated one to a youth club/group. I recently gave all my Xtra spares to a mate with an Xtra.
Anything below an XG just isn't really worth that much anymore, despite excellent performance for HD material.

[sj64]

Hey Mark,
Who knows where this 1252 of mine is going, but if you do ever have or know of someone who has a decent Xtra or other projector around the Melbourne, Sydney area -PM me, I would definitely be interested.
My last two projector I bought through Ebay and I'd like to get away from Ebay as my only source for projectors.

[sj64]

Okay I found the problem, feeling better now.
Didn't even have to reseat anything. I had the top two boards hinged up to have a look at the cpu boards, I decided to check the blue behaviour again first. Switched the pj on, and no blue problem. Swung the top boards down and the problem appeared. Tried gently pressing down on the boards as Curt suggested - and gently pressing down on the DC board it was like an on/off switch the way the blue snapped in and out of position.

I contacted Steve when I found this out. I'll send him that board and he'll go over it (no charge.) I did ask him if he had a spare board to send me in the meantime, seeing how long it took him to get the last repair done. He wasn't at his workshop to check, but he's sure he has a few spares of unknown condition, a 1272 in particular and maybe some other 12xx pjs. He himself isn't exactly sure how interchangeable these boards are, but he asked me to send the board's model# and he'll ask around.

How interchangeable are these boards? Any danger in trying the wrong board.
My exact model# is 'DC Sony CAD - 5H21AK'
The pj itself is a 1252, pretty sure it's 2nd gen. The serial# on the side is hard to read but it's 5000 something.

'cheers
SJ.

[sj64]

Had a better look at PJ:

Projector
SCC-D13E-A _______ VPH-1252QM _______ SDN #5001712

DC Board
1-639-935-13 __ (written just above 'DC' name on the board )
5H21AK _______ (large, stamped in black to the left of 'DC' name)

[Sonynut]

Just about any DC board from a 12xx will do, 1st or 2nd gen, as long as the board is GOOD of course.. The 1-639... number is the part number. The other number is stamped on every board in the set, and is unique to the projector. He should be able to send you a DC out of a 1272 and it will work just fine.

Actually, just so you know, and maybe Steve too, there are 3rd generation machines(1252 and 1272) out there also. These are easy to tell though, since the serial number starts with the number 2. I actually have a 3rd generation 1252 here. There are a few boards that will NOT interchange between 3rd and 2nd gen machines, namely the PA, KC(replacement for K), E, and a newly added KF, just to name a few. The DC I believe is still interchangeable, as far as I know, but you may want to mention this to Steve just in case.

one easy way to see if the machine is 2nd gen is to check if there is a long groundwire running from a resistor atop the PA board(top of powersupply) between the green and blue lenses. This wire usually attaches via an eye connector to a screw on the fan next to the speaker. There are other ways to tell, but this is the easiest. HD-8 lenses are also stock on MOST 2nd gen. machines, but they can always be changed, so no definite way to tell that way. Maybe OT here, but one thing to remember on a 2nd gen that helps alot is that the G2 voltage is 1.5v and NOT 4.0v....

Oh, and as far as " 'reflashing' the Rom".. He may have done a hard factory reset using the dip switches on the "Y" board, or riskier yet, reprogrammed the factory defaults using these switches. Sometimes when an error code results from over adjustment, this can work since it is the only way to bring the convergence controls back to factory settings, but is quite risky.. sounds like you may be lucky to have a working machine still....

[sj64]

Thanks for that info Sonynut.
And I remember, when I was asking about mods on a 1252 because I found this green cap soldered onto a chip on one of the cpu boards - you were interested to know what generation my 1252 was.
Well now that I've got the pj back, I can answer that question. It's definitely a 2nd Gen. I found that groundwire from PA board to fan exactly as you described.

SJ.

[Halo1963]

Hi sj64
That serial number is for a second generation unit, is the sticker with the serial number blue?

The usual problem for the boards you have described is dry solder joints on the main transistors running down the E and DC boards where they meet in the centre of the PJ

If it were my PJ I would try to re solder them first before I sent them to the black hole ,or ask Steve to re solder your boards and send them back If you are worried about the warrantee ask Steve in writing if it is OK to try this before you send them off (make sure you get the reply in writing as well)

If he just sends you swaped out boards who knows what you will get probably have the same problem because due to the age this is becoming common

[r.bauer]

Bad solder joints on the blue convergence end-stage would also be my first guess. These pink resistors are mounted next to the centered tunnel heat sink with the small fan attached to it. The cooling tunnel can run quite hot when the fans stops working, which is not that uncommon for this model projector. I've had a resistor falling to the floor on a ceiling mounted Sony 1271 because of excessive heat and it de-soldered itself and gravity did the rest.

Just get a new quality 4cm fan and resolder those resistors and you are done. Not that difficult for a first time soldering job, if you never have done it yourself. Just use proper solder!

Enjoy your 1252!

[sj64]

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

I've pulled the board out, sat by a sunny window and I've prodded, pushed and generally inspected every joint on the board and haven't found anything amiss. I'm sure it's this board as a light push of a finger on the middle of this board causes the blue to shift between good and bad. (good -vs- raster shifted ~1cm left and jittery)

I'm waiting for Steve to send me a replacement board, but it would be great if I could get this one fixed. If the joints all appear good, could there still be a hidden dry joint? Would it be worth re-soldering every joint on the board. (If so, is it enough to melt the solder and let it set again, or do I need to replace the solder on each joint?)

Any other ways to find bad joints? I've got a volt meter, and the best thing I can think of is to check for changes in resistance between points whilst gently flexing the board. But I don't have enough hands to do that!

'cheers
SJ.

[Sonynut]

You really need to look with a magnifying glass at the solder joints to see the problem. These are usually a hairline crack in the joint.

You can go through the whole board with a soldering iron and simply touch each one until it melts, then let it go. They will harden back up, and any cracks will be gone. Just BE SURE not to melt any close points together! If you do, you wil open up a whole new can of worms.

[sj64]

Thanks for your advice Sonynut, r.bauer and Halo.

I've got a friend, who's an electronic technician, coming over on the weekend to have a look with me. He's not experienced with CRT projectors, but reckons a simple problem like this should be an easy (two beers later) kind of fix.

It should be fine, and he's asked me to put the board back in and start tapping on components around the area I think the problem is to see if I can find the specific component.
I'm maybe being overly cautious here, but before I switch the pj back on, should I disconnect anything? The HV lead to the tubes or maybe something on those two convergence boards. -Too check that the board hasn't developed any other serious issues caused by me when pulling when pulling it out. And then once the pj fires up okay, I can reconnect whatever it is and start testing again.

-I've become increasingly weary about how fragile the parts in these chasis become with age. I don't want to take any chances. I heard the DC convergence board I've pulled contains the spot kill protection circuitry,

'cheers
SJ