CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[WTS]

HI,

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/, try that website. Linkwitz is the man who designed the crossover which practically every speaker uses today( he's no spring chicken he's been around along time). You can go to his site and read until your hearts content about speakers etc and he has simply and complex speaker designs on his site which tell you exactly what drivers etc you need or can use to build his designs.

Building speaker boxes is one thing but building audiophile quality speakers is a totally different subject. I friend of mine back in the 80s had his own speaker company and the amount of time and money he put into his work and test/lab equipment was staggering. He designed his own drivers too - coned and tweeters (baskets/coils/cones) and crossovers. He did get honor awards in a few highend underground mags but he never felt any of his designs were quite ready for the market and in the end that's were they stayed, in the lab.

Hmmm, for some reason the link isn't working. Just google linkwitz and you'll get it.

[ecrabb]

Your link just has a comma on the end.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/

SC

[WTS]

THanks, I didn't notice that.

[GEBrown]

One of the things I've learned as I research this subject (and read ALL the links that you guys have provided) is that a guy can go a long way toward improving the sound of his HT by simply calibrating the speakers that he has. One useful tool for this is the RivesAudio Test CD available here http://www.rivesaudio.com/software/softframes.html which provides 1/3 octave test tones from 20-20kHz

[GEBrown]

One of the things I've learned as I research this subject (and read ALL the links that you guys have provided) is that a guy can go a long way toward improving the sound of his HT by simply calibrating the speakers that he has as they sit in (and react with) the HT room. One useful tool for this is the RivesAudio Test CD
available here http://www.rivesaudio.com/software/softframes.html
which provides 1/3 octave test tones from 20-20kHz, but perhaps more importantly, it provides a second set of the same test tones that are compensated for the Radio Shack (Analog) SPL meter's non-linear response. I have the digital version of the RS SPL meter, but in reading through their forums the compensated test tones are good for either meter. This is a common SPL meter that many have. I previously used it to balance the spl readings from the different speakers in my system. But with this CD and the equalizer built into my Onkyo SR605 A/V receiver, I have been able to refine my overall frequency response to +/- 3dB from 31.5Hz to 20kHz. That is MUCH better than when I started. Even I can hear the difference!!

As I dug deeper into the DIY Speaker Building links, I found a large number of what seem to be very nice speakers, in a good range of $$$.

Here are some good ones, I'm sure there are more out there:

http://zaphaudio.com

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28655

http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/index.html

http://www.audiodiycentral.com/sd_250.shtml

My 2 cents

Gary

[Moose]

You can also get the Behringer ECM8000 calibrated mic, available at Parts Express for ~$50, plus you'll need a phantom power source. Behringer can also help you there for cheap. Or do what I did and get an M-Audio Mobile Pre USB. Add in TrueRTA for $100 and you have a 1/24 octave RTA. Although the ECM8000 is probably good enough as it comes, there's a guy who will calibrate it to perfection and send you a file on disc that you can use in TrueRTA (see the TrueRTA website).

[garyfritz]

[emdawgz1]

Here's another link....

These are nice diy, i've heard them.


http://www.nutshellhifi.com/Ariel.html

The Ariel seeks the elusive middle ground between low-efficiency audiophile speakers and refrigerator-sized high-efficiency horn systems, using twin transmission-line bass loading to get the deepest bass and clearest midrange. But I'd be the first to admit it's a challenging speaker to build - so I created a companion speaker, the ME2, which is more compact and a lot easier to construct. The ME2 uses the same overall design principles as the Ariel, it just sacrifices a bit of midrange clarity and bass depth. On the other hand, it works a lot better in smaller rooms, where the Ariel can sound bass-heavy due to floor coupling of the vent.

Over the last ten years both designs have evolved and grown in response to feedback from enthusiast builders all over the world. (See the Ariel Builder's Club for pictures and comments from readers.) Then again, maybe you just want to read about what goes into high-end speaker design. Whatever your interest, you'll want to warm up the printer and read the Web page at your leisure. (Printer and modem-friendly; no cookies, Javascript, ActiveX, or PDF files anywhere, just text, HTML, and pictures. Old-fashioned but effective.)

The Ariel and ME2 page is hosted by Nutshell High Fidelity, which features the Danish Audio ConnecT product line, articles about triode electronics (see Amity, Raven, and Aurora) and the Soul of Sound Library.

[lyd]

[WTS]

EQ'ing is not the route to a good sounding system. If the drivers are crap no amount of eqing is going to make them sound great. Besides, EQs add all kinds of extra garbage into the signal/sound wave/phase problems etc etc. The best way to great sound is straight through to a good set of drivers in properly designed enclosures.

[lyd]

[NateTTU]

I forgot to ask, what is your defenition of expensive? Some people think $1000 or more for a full setup is expensive while others think 5, 10, or even more is too much. I fall in the category of around 4k is too much for me. This is another reason why I went DIY. The people who knock against DIY do share some truth in that DIY is limited and probably can't keep pace with systems in the 10+ range as it costs a lot of money to produce speakers to warrant this price tag. However, in my eyes DIY still offers the best bang for the buck and I'm confident that there are those DIY designs that can compete with speakers up to the 10k range. If your looking to compare them to higher offerings you probably have enough money to just buy the expensive speakers instead. Not everyone can design great sounding speakers with a computer program, and while its a good start, the better DIY offerings take lots of outside measurements and tweeks to the crossovers to produce pretty decent results. This is why I choose designs built by people doing this hobby for a long time and have the necessary equipment to measure the speakers and maximize their performance. I certainly wouldn't recommend just designing your own from scratch or build one that was designed over a weekend. (and no, not even a three day weekend)

[GEBrown]

[GEBrown]

[lyd]

[ecrabb]

Warning - Long post ahead!

I wouldn't call acoustics 'simple'. I think it's pretty complicated, actually. I've done quite a bit of reading on the subject, and I feel like I'm a first-semester Freshman. Acoustic room treatments can do lots of things. Reflection, diffusion, broadband absorption, narrow-band absorption... it's pretty complicated stuff and it all depends on the room, materials, speaker placement, etc. There are some basic rules of thumb, and some simple improvements you can usually make without getting into the nitty-gritty science - like Lyd says.

You can use EQ to somewhat tame some unruly in-room frequency response, but you should address major room issues in the room first. Worse, that's only the frequency domain we're talking about, there. There's also the time domain, which is just as important as frequency response. Room resonance has a profound effect on how good the room sounds. You can take the most amazing set of speakers you can find, and if you put them in a cube-shaped concrete room, they'll sound horrible. You'll have nodes, nulls, and horrible decay (the sound bounces forever).

When reflected sounds get to your ear slightly after the direct sound from the speaker, the sound isn't as articulate - or as clean - or as understandable. That's often what people refer to as 'muddy' sound. First reflections... Unless your room is huge, you probably have first reflections. Depending on your speakers' dispersion characteristics, if you've got low ceilings or your side walls are close to your speakers, you definitely have first reflections. Left untreated, first reflections really can muddy an otherwise great sounding set of speakers.

When my theater was first (mostly) finished, I used my modest system in my untreated room, powered by my Marantz receiver that was probably putting out about 150-175w if it was lucky. First, I put up my sound treatments. Nothing special, really - 2" rockwool for broadband absorption at first reflections (and then some) for both rows. They were about $450 because I didn't make them myself... but they were worth every penny. The sound was less harsh, and much more articulate and listenable. Now it sounded clean, but it was still missing something, though. Even at moderately loud levels, it just didn't sound right. 'Weak' isn't the right word... maybe 'thin' or 'strained'!?!?

I had been in a couple of other HT's powered by pro amps, and wondered what it would do in my system. So, I bought a couple of smaller Crown amps rated 300w@4 ohms to try. Oh... my... God. The difference was massive. Now, the system had the same clean, articulate sound it had, but it 'sounded' powerful! I could feel mid-bass - not just hear it. Stuff like kick-drums and even toms and snares sounded like the real thing. Plucked strings were 'sharp'. The sound came ALIVE. The amp upgrade had as much or more of an impact on my system as the sound treatments did. Now, I wouldn't trade my amps or sound treatments for anything - it's that good.

Bottom line... Speakers, room acoustics, and amplifier quality/headroom are all important to get good sound. I'm thrilled with my combo for what I've spent. It's still amazing.

SC

[lyd]