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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| perisoft wrote: | | AnalogRocks wrote: | | Tom.W wrote: | Must be a top secret Krell  |
I remember when the used a Krell or was is a Levingson to arc weld. They played the 1812 overture and made 2 pieces of metal into one. |
Shouldn't they have gone with, say, Guns'n'Roses?  |
Or if they were teaching someone to weld, they could of used "Hot for Teacher"
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: Re: HD DVD going to war! Yeah, baby! Yeah! |
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| greg_mitch wrote: | | WanMan wrote: | | greg_mitch wrote: | | Explain why lower prices for increased volume is bad again. (Walmart?) |
Except Wal-mart isn't lowering the price on the HD-A3 player. |
Give them time to react. How long has it been since the announcement? |
They already reacted. They use to sell it for $300. Now it is $250. That is their reaction price.
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Wal-mart still wants $100 above the list price for the Toshiba HD-A3. Boy, walk about asking for a premium price.
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kal
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Bucketfoot wrote: | I'm amazed at the relative silence about Sony buying off Fox and Warner. There was an uproar about the Paramount deal, but Sony spends significantly more and nothing  |
Proof? There's a lot of rumours buy unlike the Paramount/Dreamworks buyout, there's been no proof about any Warner payout from Sony.
The execs at Warner have been been quoted as say "I wish there had been a payout".
Kal
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kal
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Some think I'm a fan of BD instead of HD-DVD. Not true. I'm a fan of HD movies on disc and just try and read through into the facts. Early on I went with HD-DVD. Then returned the player as it seemed that things were really 50/50. Then went with BD 6 months ago as it really seemed the odds were stacked in their favour. Now with almost 80% of studios exclusively doing BD, it's very confident that I chose correctly.
Here's another article from DVDfile.com worth reading:
| Quote: |
Just How Fragile Is HD DVD?
Written by Dan Ramer
Monday, 14 January 2008
Indicators and predictions
Loyalties and Payoffs
Rumors continue to circulate that Warner received a huge incentive to go Blu-ray Disc exclusive. But when Warner Home Video’s Ron Sanders was asked if there had been a Warner payoff, he answered, “I wish.” During a Blu-ray Disc Association presentation last Monday, Sanders said his studio’s decision was in response to consumer demand. He denied that the studio had received a cash incentive from the Blu-ray camp. “We have a $42 billion worldwide home entertainment business; any payments would be a drop in the ocean compared to getting it wrong in terms of what the consumer wanted. It didn’t have anything to do with any incentives.”
Rumors also continue to circulate concerning Paramount Pictures Home Entertainment and Universal Studios Home Entertainment. In an article that originally appeared in The Financial Times, it was claimed that Paramount had an escape clause built into its contract. Allegedly, if Warner Home Video bails and goes BD-exclusive, Paramount had the right to back out of its eighteen month obligation to HD DVD. An unnamed (and therefore suspect) industry insider was quoted as saying that there was a significant possibility that Paramount would exercise that clause and will make a decision within a month. The escape clause was confirmed by Variety.
Variety also reported that Universal’s legal obligation to support HD DVD is over and that the studio is weighing its options. Last Thursday, the studio announced its continued support of HD DVD. Universal Studios Home Entertainment executive vice president of HD strategic marketing Ken Graffeo said, “Contrary to unsubstantiated rumors from unnamed sources, Universal’s current plan is to continue to support the HD DVD format.” Paramount made a similar statement earlier in the week.
The operative word is “current,” a word also used by Warner until it made its BD-exclusive announcement. Neither Universal nor Paramount denied that they were considering a format switch to either format agnosticism or BD-exclusivity. And that careful wording is exactly what we should expect from any business that does not want to telegraph its plans.
The Players
Toshiba is reaching out to retailers to be assured of their continued support. It’s not quite clear just how loyal retailers are going to be. We’re beginning to see fire sale pricing. Amazon is now offering a Toshiba HD-A3 player for $133.99. TigerDirect is offering the same player for $129.99. Each comes with two movies in the box and a coupon for five more. Either Toshiba has initiated price cuts in an attempt to grow the installed base or the market for HD DVD players may be collapsing.
A quick check of eBay this morning revealed that 662 HD DVD players and only 104 Blu-ray Disc Players were for sale. Now there’s a sales ratio win for HD DVD: 6.4 to 1. And depending on which city you examine, you’ll find similar disproportionate ratios on CraigsList. Secondhand HD DVD players far outnumber secondhand BD players. On Saturday, I found ratios that ranged from 14:1 in New York City to 8.8:1 in Los Angeles to 6.6:1 in San Francisco.
Considering that the BD player installed base is far, far greater than the HD DVD player installed base, these numbers are even more significant. This does not bode well for Toshiba or the HD DVD format.
Addendum: Toshiba announced in a press release dated January14th (after this column was written) that as of January 13th, the MSRP of the entry-model HD-A3 will be $149.99, the HD-A30 with 1080p output will be $199.99, and the high-end HD-A35 will be $299.99.
The Stock Market
Wall Street may be another indicator of the expected resolution of the format war. The perceptions of institutional investors, individual investors, brokers, pundits, and analysts all affect a company’s market performance. A quick check of the Yahoo financial pages reveals that for the last three months Toshiba is in decline. Its value dropped 34%.
On the other hand, for the same period Sony’s stock value grew by 15%.
These numbers were likely buoyed by months of strong Blu-ray Disc retail performance and by optimistic predictions about the format’s future. The Blu-ray Disc Association reported that 85% of all high definition disc players purchased since the formats were introduction 2006 are Blu-ray Disc players. And the Association pointed out that 66% of all films purchased in 2007 on high definition disc was on Blu-ray Disc.
20th Century Fox Home Entertainment's executive vice president of technology strategy Danny Kaye predicted that 2008 would be “a year of very strong, explosive growth.” He expects Blu-ray Disc players will grow from the 3.5 million sold by the end of 2007 to 10 million by the end of 2008. He also suggested that 2008’s HD movie sales would explode from 2007’s $170 million to $1 billion. Those gains are expected to trigger steep growth in Blu-ray Disc sales in 2009 and 2010 that will rival the growth of DVD in the third and fourth years following its 1997 launch. “We’re going to see an inflection point where consumers embrace and buy [Blu-ray Disc] more strongly,” he said.
Lionsgate president Steve Beeks agrees, “We believe 2008 will be a watershed year for Blu-ray's ascent in the marketplace. Hopefully, we can start focusing our energy away from fighting about which format is the better format and now start focusing on consumer education. The choice is clear; consumers need to upgrade from standard def to high def, and perhaps we can start to see packaged media sales start to grow again.” But Beeks is realistic, replacing DVD sales with Blu-ray Disc sales will “take a long time, maybe an eight- to 10-year timeframe.”
Research firm Understanding & Solutions was also optimistic, predicting that by 2011, there will be a Blu-ray Disc adoption rate countrywide of 45%. Of those, 32% are expected to be Blu-ray Disc players and 15% are expected to be PS3s. As for HD DVD, the firm projects less than a 5% penetration by 2011, assuming the format is still being marketed.
Market research organization, NPD Group also pointed out that worldwide, Blu-ray Disc represents 85% of high definition disc player hardware sold since launch, but the group was a little more conservative. NPD Group VP and senior entertainment analyst Russ Crupnick observed that the Blu-ray camp will have to educate consumers and eliminate confusion about high definition before widespread adoption can be expected. For example, many consumers mistakenly believe that they already have an HD disc player because it scales 480 to 1080.
Of course, education is exactly what the Disney/Panasonic mall tour is helping to do. Only 26% of consumers were aware of Blu-ray Disc a year ago; that number presently stands at 86%. And Disney issued a booklet of fundamental HD concepts that is gaining wide distribution. During a recent visit to BJ’s (a BD-exclusive vendor), I found that the Blu-ray Disc display had stacks of free booklets, “A Simple Guide To The World Of High Definition Home Theater, And Blu-ray Disc.” Simplified but basically accurate, these, too, should help with the education process. What is missing at BJ’s is a Blu-ray Disc playing on all the widescreen displays on the floor.
The Microsoft Connection … Again
Bill Gates made his last appearance at CES this year, explaining that he was retiring to dedicate more time to his foundation. But he made clear where he believes consumers should be investing their technology dollars. “[Microsoft is] not about physical media. Even movies are moving away from physical media.”
When asked about the Warner decision, he said, “The last announcement was Paramount opting for HD DVD and now this one is going the other way. I still think a format battle is going on there. Our contribution is the HDi Interactive format piece [; it] has been really well received. We hope to see that used broadly. I think the real competitor in the long run is digital [video] download. Just like in music, it is going to be the biggest of the three.” He continued in answer to another question, “In the long run, people don’t want physical media.”
I’ve written before and I’ll write it again. I think Microsoft has a vested interest in prolonging the format war until the infrastructure is in place to support its download service. And, alas, there is a significant proportion of the population that simply doesn’t care about quality. But, Wal-Mart and Google recently shut down their video download services, and Movie Gallery went bankrupt trying to make a go of its MovieBeam service. Sterne Agee analyst Arvind Bhatis observed that movie downloads do not yet make economic sense. “The comfort level and technology are not there yet.”
I don’t think most Americans trust the reliability of hard disks to store their movie collections. And I don’t know about you, but I’m not comfortable with the stability and reliability of any Microsoft operating system. I’ve moved up to Windows Business Vista and I’m still experiencing resource leakage. So even if I had a 50 Gbit/sec fiber optic pipe to my door, I still wouldn’t opt for HD downloads.
Long live physical media.
Parting Thoughts
As Universal and Paramount consider their bottom lines and examine trends both in the marketplace and on Wall Street, we must wait patiently. It may take a few weeks, or a few months, or perhaps the rest of the year. But short of any grand surprise, it’s very likely that we will see the end to this destructive format war before the next president of the United States finally is sworn in.
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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So for any of you who got the 5-DVD-free deal from Toshiba -- how long did it take them to send your disks? I'd like to flip mine on ebay while anybody still wants to buy them....
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: |
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Gary, it took more than three months for HD DVD, but at least they delivered the movies you choose (well, in my case they did). The free movies for buying the PS3 came sooner, but not all of the movies I picked arrived--there were unwanted substitutions (lame).
As such, its just another shining example of why one shouldn't bother with these kinds of enticements.
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ecrabb
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Here's another bull**** rebate cop-out:
The saturday after Thanksgiving, my Dad and I drove a few miles extra to a Wal-Mart we thought would be less busy so we could take advantage of the PS3 w/10 free BD movies deal. Great. We got the players and movies. Cool. Then, we get home... Get this: On the 5-free movies rebate, there's fine print that the rebate can't be submitted in a state different from where the player was purchased. We drove over an F-ing bridge. The players were purchased in Nebraska - literally 5 miles from my old man's house in Iowa. We called Wal-Mart and they couldn't or wouldn't do anything (we thought maybe return/re-sell at another store or something). They told us we could return them. That's it. Instead, we submitted the rebates at a couple of friends' houses in Nebraska.
You know damn well there is NO legitimate reason that stipulation is in the rebate - other than to screw people with. I think some of these rebate companies need to have some big, fat, nasty-ass class-action lawsuits leveled at them.
Wanman, at least you got substitutions. I've heard some people just aren't getting some of their selections. Period.
It took a couple of months, but at least when I got my free HD-DVD's, I got all my selections. We still don't have our BD's.
SC
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: |
You know damn well there is NO legitimate reason that stipulation is in the rebate - other than to screw people with. |
Although I agree with you, my guess is that they are trying to limit the discs on items purchased on the Internet. I think it is the only legal way they can limit the rebate on items purchased via the Internet (i.e. they can't legally say, "you only get 5 if you purchase on the internet.").
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Dave
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | Some think I'm a fan of BD instead of HD-DVD. Not true. I'm a fan of HD movies on disc and just try and read through into the facts. |
Some think I'm a fan of HD DVD instead of BD. Not true. I'm a fan of HD movies on disc. Therefore, I want them delivered in the highest quality most user friendly format available. Given that they both can store the exact same movie with the exact same encoding, the decision had to be made on grounds other than movie quality. I felt HD DVD should win because:
1) No region codes
2) Less DRM
3) Lower costs to manufacture players
4) Lower costs to manufacture discs with more lines that can be easily converted from DVD.
5) HDi is better than the still to be finalized BD-J.
In addition to this, supporting BD means endorsing Sony's position to force consumers into paying more for less by holding content hostage. The only recourse we have as consumers is spending our $$$ in ways that benefit us, not hurt us. Willingly supporting companies that engage in these sorts of practices can only serve to hurt us as consumers.
We all know that if all movies were released on both formats, BD would be dead already. The "hold content hostage" approach is the only reason they got this far. And I'm simply flabbergasted that anyone would play into this. Would you guys really just accept it and say "oh well" and go down to buy a Ford if you had to by a Ford to drive on many roads? I'd like to hope that consumers would not screw themselves in this way. But with BD, we (collectively) have decided to screw ourselves. Unbelievable.
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Dave
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kal
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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By 'facts' I meant who's winning/not winning. Not which is the 'better' solution. Sorry - that was confusing.
| Person99 wrote: | I felt HD DVD should win because:
1) No region codes
2) Less DRM
3) Lower costs to manufacture players
4) Lower costs to manufacture discs with more lines that can be easily converted from DVD.
5) HDi is better than the still to be finalized BD-J. |
Agreed 100%. Though change the words "should win" to "should have won".
| Person99 wrote: | | In addition to this, supporting BD means endorsing Sony's position to force consumers into paying more for less by holding content hostage. The only recourse we have as consumers is spending our $$$ in ways that benefit us, not hurt us. Willingly supporting companies that engage in these sorts of practices can only serve to hurt us as consumers. |
Yup. True. People chose BD due to this and also due to ignorance because the term "Blu-ray" was associated with something new while "HD-DVD" doesn't sound new.
| Person99 wrote: | | We all know that if all movies were released on both formats, BD would be dead already. |
That I'm not sure of. For some reason the general population did not seem to do their homework on this one. That coupled with the fact that not all movies could be had on both formats, with some very large ones on BD only, has us where we are today: close to 80% of movies are only available on BD.
I find the whole thing a really interesting commentary on marketing and today's society and I'm not sure the comment is a good one. 
| Quote: | | The "hold content hostage" approach is the only reason they got this far. And I'm simply flabbergasted that anyone would play into this. Would you guys really just accept it and say "oh well" and go down to buy a Ford if you had to by a Ford to drive on many roads? |
No, but I did wait until the Ford could be driven on a larger number of roads than the other models and that it seemed pretty clear (at least to me) that there was no chance of the other models ever succeeding. My first HD disc player was an HD-DVD but ended up returning it and waiting 8 months because the race was just too close.
| Person99 wrote: | | I'd like to hope that consumers would not screw themselves in this way. But with BD, we (collectively) have decided to screw ourselves. Unbelievable. |
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I like movies more than I hate Sony and am willing to accept that I may pay higher prices for movies in the future because of this an that Sony may get rich off of it. The possible price difference won't affect me. Cost is the only issue out of the 5 you listed above that I may have cared about. I couldn't care less about:
Region codes: I've never bought anything outside my region and never wanted to with DVD. No issue for me. Sony can do as they please.
DRM: I don't really care what or how they implement any sort of rights management as long as when I put the disc in the player it plays for me.
HDi vs BD-J: Couldn't care less about special features or other useless junk. Just give me the movie. I tried some of the new BD profile 1.1 PIP stuff on the recent release of 'Sunshine'. Whatever. Who cares. Just give me the movie with great picture/sound.
But then that's just me.
Movies on HD are fantastic compared to SD - I didn't want to wait. I had waited long enough.
Kal
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Joust
Joined: 05 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: |
| Person99 wrote: | | We all know that if all movies were released on both formats, BD would be dead already. |
That I'm not sure of. For some reason the general population did not seem to do their homework on this one. That coupled with the fact that not all movies could be had on both formats, with some very large ones on BD only, has us where we are today: close to 80% of movies are only available on BD.
I find the whole thing a really interesting commentary on marketing and today's society and I'm not sure the comment is a good one. |
This is an interesting one.
I had opportunity to talk to the ignorant masses on this.
My sister bought her husband a 58inch plasma. She wanted to go out and start buying HiDef Movies. She thought that BluRay was the ONLY hi def source. Hadn't even heard of HD-DVD and confused them with SD-DVD.
Further proof of her ignorance, she though that you could play all formats on her standard DVD player. She didn't know you needed a new player too. So, my brother in-law is watching 480i on his 58inch plasma because she broke the bank on that upgrade. I showed them HD-DVD from my Xbox360 on it. it was nice.
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kal
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Joust wrote: | | She thought that BluRay was the ONLY hi def source. Hadn't even heard of HD-DVD and confused them with SD-DVD. |
As someone who sees the 100's of emails that Curt gets every week (I scan 'em sometimes and see if I can help), I have to say this is exactly the issue that I'm seeing as well.
People just don't know the facts.
The HD-DVD group should have picked a better name as all of the manufacturers over the last 3-4 years have been so busy trying to mislead buyers into thinking that their DVD players and other playback devices already do 1080p/HD.
I seriously think that if they had picked a different name without "HD" or "DVD" in it, the results would have been different.
Kal
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Joust
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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RedRay
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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The only problem with that is HD DVD uses a "blue ray".
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Dave
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paw
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: Arvada, CO
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
Some think I'm a fan of HD DVD instead of BD. Not true. I'm a fan of HD movies on disc. Therefore, I want them delivered in the highest quality most user friendly format available. Given that they both can store the exact same movie with the exact same encoding, the decision had to be made on grounds other than movie quality. I felt HD DVD should win because:
1) No region codes
2) Less DRM
3) Lower costs to manufacture players
4) Lower costs to manufacture discs with more lines that can be easily converted from DVD.
5) HDi is better than the still to be finalized BD-J.
In addition to this, supporting BD means endorsing Sony's position to force consumers into paying more for less by holding content hostage. The only recourse we have as consumers is spending our $$$ in ways that benefit us, not hurt us. Willingly supporting companies that engage in these sorts of practices can only serve to hurt us as consumers.
We all know that if all movies were released on both formats, BD would be dead already. The "hold content hostage" approach is the only reason they got this far. And I'm simply flabbergasted that anyone would play into this. Would you guys really just accept it and say "oh well" and go down to buy a Ford if you had to by a Ford to drive on many roads? I'd like to hope that consumers would not screw themselves in this way. But with BD, we (collectively) have decided to screw ourselves. Unbelievable. |
6) Upgradable firmware.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | By 'facts' I meant who's winning/not winning. Not which is the 'better' solution. Sorry - that was confusing. |
I knew what you meant. I was being a smart a$$.
| kal wrote: | | Though change the words "should win" to "should have won". |
Sadly it looks that way.
| kal wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | We all know that if all movies were released on both formats, BD would be dead already. |
That I'm not sure of. For some reason the general population did not seem to do their homework on this one. That coupled with the fact that not all movies could be had on both formats, with some very large ones on BD only, has us where we are today: close to 80% of movies are only available on BD.
I find the whole thing a really interesting commentary on marketing and today's society and I'm not sure the comment is a good one. |
You may have a point, the Sony marketing machine did a good job of putting it in people's face.
| Quote: |
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I like movies more than I hate Sony and am willing to accept that I may pay higher prices for movies in the future because of this an that Sony may get rich off of it. |
For me, it is not just the higher prices and any Sony hating. It is the terrible precedent. This tactic will continue to screw us for years to come.
| Quote: | Movies on HD are fantastic compared to SD - I didn't want to wait. I had waited long enough.
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Let me live in my dream world!!! If we would have all banded together as consumers and killed BD, we would have the movies you want, and even more of them. Ah, a boy can dream!
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Joust
Joined: 05 May 2006
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Location: Almonte, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: |
The only problem with that is HD DVD uses a "blue ray". |
Does it? oops my ignorant.... 
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | I knew what you meant. I was being a smart a$$. |
What!? I can't imagine that... 
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Let me live in my dream world!!! If we would have all banded together as consumers and killed BD, we would have the movies you want, and even more of them. Ah, a boy can dream! |
sorry, no banding together here. too many Lemmings bought into the sony superiority lie and were convinced 50Gb was the second coming of the video Messiah  Now, we will all be paying more for everything and getting more too like HDCP. OK, on the count of 3 everyone bend over, grab your ankles, and shout "I LOVE SONY"
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