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lyd
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 390
Location: Lake Mills, Wi
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: Black levels -- test patterns OK, movies not? |
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I'm not sure what's going on here, but I can't seem to get a lot of detail at low ire, even though patterns seem to indicate I should be.
I started paying close attention to this when I got the moome card, and the first thing I did was take a look at the pattern I have set as my desktop background. I set brightness back down (I had it up pretty high to compensate for the problem pre-moome) so black was black, then I turned up the gamma on the vim-hd until the IRE bars were doing what they should. I have a very dark color scheme on my desktop, and I had previously not been able to distinguish some very dark gray on black detail there, and now I could. So far so good. Pop in an HD movie, shadow detail still seems lost.
Ok, fire up the Nokia monitor test. Check that I am clearly distinguishing the levels in the low-ire pattern it has. Yup, looks great. Movies still look dark. At this point I have the gamma tweak on the moome cranked up as high as it will go, but no help.
Right then, must be some difference with the way PDVD is outputting HD, maybe its an overlay thing. So I download an ISO of patterns from this site, play it in PDVD, and check the IRE Bars patterns, both 0 to 100 in 10 IRE steps and -5 to 105 in 5 ire steps. Both look like they should. Movies still seem to have no detail in the very black stuff.
The movies I was looking at were V for Vendetta, Van Helsing, and Aeon Flux. I can see that there is more detail there, because if I crank brightness way the heck up on the projector it becomes visible. Of course this also raises the black level unacceptably high.
I checked G2 voltages, they were already quite high (72/69/70). I visually re-set them, using the internal staggered bars pattern and, looking at the tube with contrast/brightness set to 50/50, adjusting until the darkest was invisible and the second darkest was barely perceptible. That left them all over 70.
Still no good. Brightness is set at 50 - 55 for best blacks (where it looks right on the patterns), high 60's to low 70's if I try to bring out at least some of that detail, and requires 80+ (which I have never left for more than a moment) to see all the detail, while totally ruining the black level in the process. Contrast is around 55.
Anyone know what's up? Is this a dynamic range issue, where I am just never going to be able to resolve all the shadow detail that is there while maintaining white levels where they need to be? Does it sound like I need more curve correction than the moome is providing? (I was originally planning on just using the pc drivers for this anyway, but I have seen so many complaints of banding and such that I decided to try to stay away from that.) Something else?
lyd
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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From what I'm reading, It seems you're using a 0 IRE setup when your movies require an 7.5 IRE. This is usually setup in the DVD player.
Test patterns are usually done for 0 IRE. Not the case with most movies.
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Black levels -- test patterns OK, movies not? |
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| lyd wrote: |
Right then, must be some difference with the way PDVD is outputting HD, maybe its an overlay thing. So I download an ISO of patterns from this site, play it in PDVD, and check the IRE Bars patterns, both 0 to 100 in 10 IRE steps and -5 to 105 in 5 ire steps. Both look like they should. Movies still seem to have no detail in the very black stuff.
The movies I was looking at were V for Vendetta, Van Helsing, and Aeon Flux. I can see that there is more detail there, because if I crank brightness way the heck up on the projector it becomes visible. Of course this also raises the black level unacceptably high.
lyd |
So I'm not the only one eh? I have been testing the new LG drive this past week on a Sony G520P 21" monitor. I noticed when I have my desktop brightness all set up and go to play a movie the first thing I want to do is raise the brightness from 32 to 48.
The other odd probelm I noticed is sometimes if I play a movie, close it, then try to play another the playback in PDVD is too dark to see. The only fix I have found so far is a reboot. This is also true if I change screen resolutions. I tend to use the desktop at 1152x864 and bump it up to 1920 x 1080P for HD stuff.
By the way what video card are you running? I have a Geforce 8600 GTS 256mb.
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lyd
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 390
Location: Lake Mills, Wi
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | From what I'm reading, It seems you're using a 0 IRE setup when your movies require an 7.5 IRE. This is usually setup in the DVD player.
Test patterns are usually done for 0 IRE. Not the case with most movies. |
I'm using a HTPC rather than a DVD player, but I understand what you are saying.
Thing is, if I am looking at a pattern with, say, 0 to 100 IRE in 10 IRE steps and I adjust it so that 0 is black and 10 is just visible, then if I watch something with 7.5 setup I'm going to see more shadow detail rather than less, no? When I look at the -5 IRE to 105 IRE pattern it is all black until +5, at which point it is only just barely becoming distinguishable from black. If I am calibrating closer to 0 IRE and watching something calibrated closer to 7.5, shouldn't the blacks not appear black enough? Just the opposite is happening.
One of the wildcards here is that I don't know if expansion is occurring, which is why I was using 0 to 100 patterns to start, but with so much else confusing happening I haven't really figured that out yet.
If I am misunderstanding something here I'd eagerly welcome correction.
Oh, and add to all of that, is HD-DVD and Blu-Ray 7.5 setup or 0 setup? I have seen conflicting information regarding this.
lyd
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lyd
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 390
Location: Lake Mills, Wi
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:32 pm Post subject: Re: Black levels -- test patterns OK, movies not? |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | | By the way what video card are you running? I have a Geforce 8600 GTS 256mb. |
7900 GTO
lyd
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winduptoy
Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 187
Location: Lunenburg, Nova Scotia
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:33 am Post subject: |
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Have you thought of trying the RTC2200? The gamma adjustment will do wonders below 20 IRE.
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:52 am Post subject: |
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I'm thinking there's a bug in Windows somewhere that's causing this. I tried using VLC media player and got the same result. Maybe something to do with ther renderers? Although I've never ever played with those.
I think I'll post this in the HTPC forum and see what develops.
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jask
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 10187
Location: kamloops BC
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:08 am Post subject: |
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just to be sure, you are adjusting the gamma settings in power dvd right?
My old setup(720P)with theatertek was finally looking great-till I started to run the combo drive and the powerdvd playback was stuffed
fixed that (mostly) and things look far better..
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lyd
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 390
Location: Lake Mills, Wi
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| winduptoy wrote: | | Have you thought of trying the RTC2200? The gamma adjustment will do wonders below 20 IRE. |
I'm using a VIM-HD.
lyd
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lyd
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 390
Location: Lake Mills, Wi
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| jask wrote: | just to be sure, you are adjusting the gamma settings in power dvd right?
My old setup(720P)with theatertek was finally looking great-till I started to run the combo drive and the powerdvd playback was stuffed
fixed that (mostly) and things look far better.. |
I'm not adjusting gamma in pdvd at all.
lyd
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nuttall_chris
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 832
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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There is a registry tweak that needs to be done with PowerDVD that will solve this problem.
Search your registry for COLORSPACE_OPTION and set the value to 1. You will need to re-setup your brightness level but this should help.
Chris.
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lyd
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 390
Location: Lake Mills, Wi
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| nuttall_chris wrote: | There is a registry tweak that needs to be done with PowerDVD that will solve this problem.
Search your registry for COLORSPACE_OPTION and set the value to 1. You will need to re-setup your brightness level but this should help.
Chris. |
Yesssss! Thanks, man. That's exactly what I need, and also what Mike Parker was talking about above, I think.
I haven't actually tried it yet (waiting for the projector to warm up) but now that I know what to look for a quick search seems to confirm this will do the right thing.
Excellent. Thanks again.
lyd
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lyd
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 390
Location: Lake Mills, Wi
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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Just a follow-up to say; sweet! All is well in low IRE-land once again.
Thanks so much, that was just driving me crazy. 
lyd
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:17 am Post subject: |
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I just got my HTPC back together again. I'll try that. Thanks Chris.
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jask
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 10187
Location: kamloops BC
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:20 am Post subject: |
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thanks gents...must....go....tweek.....
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jask
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 10187
Location: kamloops BC
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: |
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NICE!!
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Ahh still up at 1:33 in the am are we Jask.
How's it looking now?
I spent hours looking for the proper version of PowerDVD to play Harry Poter and teh Order of the Phoenix. Finally got it and man am I tired.
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jask
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 10187
Location: kamloops BC
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: |
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ALL NIGHT LONG 
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lyd
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 390
Location: Lake Mills, Wi
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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I did notice that colors are noticeably less saturated after making this change. It was a little startling at first, but I suspect that they were over-saturated before, with the default setting.
I guess the next step will be to get out the Eye-One Display2 and fire up HCFR.
lyd
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CRTuser
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| nuttall_chris wrote: | There is a registry tweak that needs to be done with PowerDVD that will solve this problem.
Search your registry for COLORSPACE_OPTION and set the value to 1. You will need to re-setup your brightness level but this should help.
Chris. |
Could you please elaborate on this topic a little bit more?
Is the registry file in the PowerDVD folder? What's its name?
Thanks.
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