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lyd
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 390
Location: Lake Mills, Wi
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: Scan lines -- when should and should not I be seeing them? |
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Hi all, I'm out of town this week, which means I just get to think about tuning the projector, and what I'm thinking about is scan lines.
As I have mentioned in a couple of previous posts, the physical setup for my 8500 is not optimum right now, and that's the first thing I'll be fixing the next full weekend I'm at home, followed by redoing the rest of the setup from scratch.
In the meantime, I have been watching a few DVD's and fiddling with this and that to try to get more familiar with everything.
When I did the initial setup, at internal frequency #2, I was very clearly seeing the scan lines on all tubes. The raster was maximized horizontally and vertically during this time.
After switching to 720P input from the PC, I noticed that things were a touch on the soft side. I wasn't to worried about it at the time, knowing I had bigger fish to fry, but this past Saturday I played around with it a bit after I finished packing. I moved the rasters a bit on the tube -- they were too close to one edge after I finished adjusting for my physical problems, then moved the screen itself to get the image centered again. I touched up the optical focus, then the center electronic focus, then the the optical again. All of this improved things tangibly, but I noticed while working on the focus that I was never clearly seeing separate scan lines.
I am just wondering if I should be (my impression now is yes, but what I do I know at this point?  seeing them. I have the height set at 0 (or maybe it is 3 now... something near zero anyway) to fit the 16:9 screen. The projector has not had the anamorphic mod, but doesn't seem to need it to fit at this distance. Just squeaks in. The sides are something in the neighborhood of 1.5 - 2 cm from the edges of the tube.
None of this is terribly important in its current state, but I am definitely going to need to understand when I should be clearly seeing the individual lines and what affects that most when I go back at the setup. I was planning to run 960p for SD DVD, so not resolving them at 720p has me mildly concerned. (About my approach, not necessarily the unit.)
Any suggestions or references (I have read all the stuff on Curt's site more times than I can count at this point, as well as the various popular setup guides) are appreciated.
lyd
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deronmoped
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1154
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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lyd, Look into the lenses and see if you can see scan lines on the tube face. That will give you a idea if it's the lenses.
What you will probably need to do is take the class in understanding and settinng astig, focus pots, electronic focus, flapping and lens focus. I've taken the class a bunch of times, my ability to get a better image out of my PJ keeps improving. The only problem is, it's a self taught course.
Guys, we need a sticky on focusing.
Deron.
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lyd
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 390
Location: Lake Mills, Wi
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Focus pots? Not for me! 
I am pretty clear on the theory, if not practiced in the execution, of adjusting astig using the rings and the stigmator, electronic focus and optical focus. I know that it will just take lots of repetition until I actually become any good at doing it. I am less sure to what degree squashing the raster and the electronic corrections I have had to make in compensation for the sub-optimal physical alignment should be expected to prevent it from being possible to completely dial in those adjustments.
In my references to scan lines above, I am referring to how they look on the tube face. At 720p, distinguishable but not sharply defined. I do not think it is a problem I am having in adjusting beam focus. Careful adjustment never seems to bring them fully in, even at low contrast settings (~30). Close, but no cigar.
Still looks pretty good on screen, but I am sure it ought to be sharper.
If this is all just too nebulous to answer, I'll shut up about it and ask again after I have redone the whole setup and can dismiss more of those other problems from the equation.
lyd
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deronmoped
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1154
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:15 am Post subject: |
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lyd
If the focus pots are anything like on the NEC PJ series, it's the easiest adjustment to make.
The information you want is really not out there. It would be nice if there were examples of how each PJ's scan lines should look, but there are just too many variables. People usually just talk about if you can make out scan lines at a certain resolution on a certain size screen. What might help you out is become more familiar with what your individual PJ is capable of and work off of that. Right now you know where you are at (you have a baseline), you just need to try different things and see if there is any improvement or not. Or you can get a professional out there and they can tell you how it compares to other PJ's he has set up.
Deron.
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pfloydphanatic
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 240
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:30 am Post subject: |
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on my ECP 4100 projector i'm starting to see scanning lines popping up here and there, like the lines are vibrating in different parts of the image... and it moves around though. like there was a verticle line on the right and left sides of the screen, now there are more on the bottom.. they're no longer in the center of the screen. like i said, they move. could this be something needs to be cleaned in the projector or just a bad video signal? i'm only using a line doubler right now... perhaps it would go away if i went with an HD fury? and used maybe a higher res from my upconverting dvd player? it seems to be only in the blue tube. i'll take some pics later.
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JustGreg
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3098
Location: Kenosha, WI
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| deronmoped wrote: | lyd
If the focus pots are anything like on the NEC PJ series, it's the easiest adjustment to make.
The information you want is really not out there. It would be nice if there were examples of how each PJ's scan lines should look, but there are just too many variables. People usually just talk about if you can make out scan lines at a certain resolution on a certain size screen. What might help you out is become more familiar with what your individual PJ is capable of and work off of that. Right now you know where you are at (you have a baseline), you just need to try different things and see if there is any improvement or not. Or you can get a professional out there and they can tell you how it compares to other PJ's he has set up.
Deron. |
No focus pots on the Marquees. It operates either physical or dynamic electrical adjustment.
I personally stopped trying to get to a higher setup level than I am after 18 months of owning a Marquee...I know...my membership has just been revoked. But before anyone makes me walk the plank I have this in my defense.
1) I knew by listening to people in 3 forums for over a year that if I wanted to be happy sitting in front of the screen >90% of the time...I'd have to make the decision to stop everything when I felt I'd achieved that (happy with the image). I did that..
2) Although I consider myself a critical thinker, I realized I just wasn't ever going to be able to stitch together all the information I'd bombarded myself with when I first got the thing to produce a truly superior image. We're all good at different things...me completely unraveling the Marquee isn't one of them I guess. Which led me to Number One above.
3) The majority of the pro's or oldtimers or guru's...whatever they tolerate being called; will tell you that when you've gotten it dialed in enough to enjoy it, you've arrived. Which led me to Number One above.
4) And final...there isn't ONE person anyone knows outside the hobby that when stood in front of a so-so setup and a pro, will not be overwhelmed regardless. Do an A/B and sure they'll know. Other than that...trying to explain the steps required to get even a 'good' image is lost on them.
So I.......Revert back to Number One and I'm happy owning one of these things...and proud of myself for the image thrown up on the screen.
My audio on the other hand needs me to win the lottery and hire Curt and draganm to do a show in my HT called "Flip That Audio!!!" 
Bill Blues Magnetics Setup 101 is a pretty good recipe to follow. Others have their own but I mostly went with his mixed with Tim's to get where I am. It looks pretty good although I SHOULD do a full init and do it again.
Funner than hell tho aren't they? 
Greg
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Greg
"Is it ignorance or apathy? Hey, I don't know and I don't care!" --Jimmy Buffett
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lyd
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 390
Location: Lake Mills, Wi
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| JustGreg wrote: |
4) And final...there isn't ONE person anyone knows outside the hobby that when stood in front of a so-so setup and a pro, will not be overwhelmed regardless. Do an A/B and sure they'll know. Other than that...trying to explain the steps required to get even a 'good' image is lost on them. |
Too true! Of course, I was/am fairly overwhelmed myself, even knowing how much room for improvement remains. In some ways because of knowing how much room for improvement remains.
But I honestly wasn't sure if it was really as nice as I thought, or if it was more of a psychological pride of ownership thing that was going on, until this past Friday when a guy from work gave me a lift home. He came in the house and saw the projector hanging up there, and started asking questions about it. We're CATV techs, so we see a lot of display devices of all types and grades, and are used to looking pretty critically at image quality. Simply being big is not going to impress anyone.
As I was powering things up and preparing to show him how it looked, he was glancing around at the construction aftermath, the massive unit hovering overhead, the high-voltage guts spilling out of it, and just as I was starting a DVD at some random chapter he said, "Man, why don't you just get a big DL...wow! There's no comparison!"
That was really gratifying.
| Quote: | | Bill Blues Magnetics Setup 101 is a pretty good recipe to follow. |
With the exception of the method for raster centering, that's the route took for my first setup.
| Quote: | | Funner than hell tho aren't they? |
Yeah!
lyd
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| JustGreg wrote: | | My audio on the other hand needs me to win the lottery and hire Curt and draganm to do a show in my HT called "Flip That Audio!!!" Greg |
yeah good luck with that, Audio can be a brutal merry-go-round. I think i'm almost there though, just another 500 bucks and I'm sure I will hear the voice of God talking through my Quad's.
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Fujifrontier
Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 354
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So I.......Revert back to Number One and I'm happy owning one of these things...and proud of myself for the image thrown up on the screen. |
awwww! that's precisely what i would say
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ralpharch
Joined: 02 Nov 2007
Posts: 211
Location: Derwood
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| JustGreg wrote: |
.....4) And final...there isn't ONE person anyone knows outside the hobby that when stood in front of a so-so setup and a pro, will not be overwhelmed regardless. Do an A/B and sure they'll know. Other than that...trying to explain the steps required to get even a 'good' image is lost on them.
So I.......Revert back to Number One and I'm happy owning one of these things...and proud of myself for the image thrown up on the screen.
.....
Greg |
Well said.
Similar situation here with my Marquee 81110+
The "gurus" all say the onscreen should be better (higher resolution) at 1080i versus 1080p for my projector. All types of comments about ringing on the Moome external box.
So I throw up Talledega Nights in Blue Ray via the PS3 and the Moome box both in 1080i and several minutes later in 1080p to demo the new equipment for my son.
No ringing (or at least I don't notice it) or perhaps don't know what I'm looking for.
My son says "the 1080p looks sharper and better" (they both look great to me).
So I will sit back and relax and enjoy @ 1080p. (Haven't had a vertical sync loss in several months - maybe Dragam's deoxit advice took late; or the Moome sends a better signal for sync than my KD transcoder - who knows or cares but its working).
No need to always pursue perfection.
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lyd
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 390
Location: Lake Mills, Wi
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| ralpharch wrote: | | No need to always pursue perfection. |
Heresy!
lyd
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Stone the heritic! I think this is where we call Cliff 
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Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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ralpharch
Joined: 02 Nov 2007
Posts: 211
Location: Derwood
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:21 am Post subject: |
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Hold the rocks - I'll go back to 1080i. Even if I don't see a difference I'll feel better knowing I'm not inciting the resolution police. 
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:26 am Post subject: |
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Actully you may be a little new to the forum for such ribbing and insider jokes. Indocturnation of fire. Welcome. Stoning optional.
_________________
Tech support for nothing
CRT.
HD done right!
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