CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[crteaman]

Hi All, thought the header would attract some interest, tis a long time since I sat down and typed up a post, so what better subject than that age old chestnut mentioned above.

Another digital bashing session perchance? nope, not my style...although I am a CRTman at heart, and yes most passionate about them, I like to keep an open mind........eleven years ago, or thereabouts 'THEY' told me it was all over for CRT, LCD was better..end of.

Well we all knew the truth about that one, manufacturers trying to sell 'NEW' product, with new technical terms and buzzwords (stay with me Digi-Dudes) the big dinosaur was soon to become extinct, hell we all know nothing lasts forever, and even I thought the CRT would be dead and gone around five years ago.

So what's my post really all about, well I dropped in on'THAT' other big American forum (you know the one) and someone there , whose name currently escapes me, was calling for a shoot out, a punch up no less..what between two guy's? nope CRT vs a JVC!

Hmmm, well methinks, that I can't offer very easily...well ok I can here in the UK, but since I do a big chunk of my work for one of the top re-sellers of JVC products here in the UK, and because of this I got to live with a RS1/HD1 in my home properly set up and being fed by my Crystalio II scaler, only fair as it feeds my crt so Apples with Apples.

Now I’m pretty confident that any wise man on this forum will admit the following,

(A) there is no such thing (nor will there ever be) as the perfect display device.

(B) No one display technology is king in all area's.

I'm also pretty confident that even the most ardent of die hard CRT guy's here would not turn down the chance to nail (ok double side sticky tape) a digital to his ceiling if it really offered more strength's than weaknesses over his trusty CRT, you Digi guy's really think we just want these 'Beastie's' just cos they are big n' heavy?

So with the RS100/HD100 due in either Monday or Tuesday, I thought it would be a great time to tell you my opinion's (and they are just that) on what I thought of the HD1 when it came to live with me for a month, and it's the duration of it's stay with me rather than a quick play or dem which I hope carries more credence.

First thing to do once getting it out of the box was to get it positioned properly, my cart is on a perfect centre (center) line so what's good for the goose is good for the gander as they say here in blight, I’m fortunate here as I already have perfect lines marked in my room (both laterally and longitudinal) laid down with self leveling laser levels etc.

I decided to place the JVC as far back as possible in my 16' long room in order to gain as much in contrast ratio as I could, and around this point in time one of my buddies 'GUY' came over (Gizlaroc on UK forums) in fact once he heard I had the JVC at home he was round quicker than a dose of EX-LAX

So we had what I would call a quick play/set up of around 30-40 mins once it was in situ and off we went, power her up let her rip for a few mins, quick coffee etc and let's see what she has?

My instant thought was wow! no kidding, I could see we needed to make a heap of adjustments before we started to dissect the image, so on my 72" draper Onyx screen light output was not a problem..we had far too much of it, so once into low lamp mode we were heading in the right direction.

wow this thing was bright (to my eyes) so lets drop the contrast a little... then a bit more...and finally yes, a bit more! hmm colours are not bad but a slight green cast most noticeable on skin tones, movie of choice was the first half hour of Dances with wolves in Hi-Def (from a hard drive).

We played for quite a while each of us giving it a 'gimme that remote here let me try' thing that us guy's do, and ended with both of us looking at each other and..well giving up..for now, slight green cast...i'm nitpicking here and nor was I using the crystalio to correct these issues and I also was not pixel mapping the scaler to the JVC.

So over the next few evening's I played a little more (well what else) both myself and my 'Better half' then did just what we should do over the next month.( no, not that)..we watched a bunch of stuff, just living with it daily...note here the CRT was not switched on in this period of time.

Results were... well I’m gonna carry this on, if there's enough interest in the 'Goose and the gander' part Deux.

Before I dash off, thought I had better just give the specifications on my CRT;

Vidikron vision one...ok year 2000 marquee ultra in fancy case.

New tubes fitted, genuine Panasonic 3 years (only 407 hours) ago, Red and green 'C' elements.

And...a heap of modifications, such as high and low voltage, focus board, vertical board and Convergence, and even the chips on the stigmator board. also the internal video cables, fan mods, GT17 lenses etc etc..oh and not the MP mods...YET.

James

[Rdean]

OK, you have my attention. 8)

First post huh? With a Marquee like that I would have assumed you would have been here before now.

[dbaisey]

You should be posting in the Movie and Media review section. Doug

[Tim in Phoenix]

Hello

Surprised to hear JVC still in business.........!

[ecrabb]

Why, Doug? That section is for reviewing movies or media... He's reviewing projectors, isn't he? The CRT Projectors section seems to be the appropriate place for this.

Welcome to the forum, James! Bring on the comparison review!!!

I'll be interested in seeing if your impressions are similar to mine. I've seen quite a few high end displays - both digital and CRT. I have to admit the high-end digital stuff is getting really good - very good. Good enough that it's surpassing CRT in almost every category besides absolute black (and perhaps reliability and ongoing cost). When today's high-end performance has trickled down to the $2000 U.S. ballpark and the technology stabilizes somewhat, then I'll probably jump in. I don't expect that to happen for another 2-3 years, though. Until then, I'm all CRT and perfectly happy watching other people spend their money!!!

SC

[dbaisey]

I'm not sure but if I go off conclusions it would be the movie reviews.

[Zebu Fellenz]

It sounds like he will be reviewing the PQ of the two projectors and not the PQ of the movies.

Erik

[Tom.W]

Thanks for posting here James ! Took you long enough ...
James knows his CRTs and does installations for Henry in the UK.
Funny this is post #1000

[jask]

[paw]

Damn! He leaves us hanging. Yes, part 2.

I've seen a length demo of the RS1 on a Firehawk screen and thought it was quite qood. Besides the sparklies from the Firehawk screen itself. I saw a short demo of the RS2 at CEDIA. Also very nice.

[crteaman]

Part deux,

Paw, sorry to keep you hanging....by a 'thread'

Tom, good to be here, we are all CRT'men, sorry it took so long, I got lost looking at a picture of a bunch of writhing gals posted up by a guy called Cliffy on 'THAT' other forum.

Doug, happy to review any movie you throw my way, if you can make it BD or HD and a movie I’ve not seen yet all the better, and if you can make it 'Camp cuddly pines' it will be better still

So, to roughly pick up where I left off, we had reduced the light output and had a play with the colour (sorry for UK spelling) and given up on the subtle (ish) green cast to proceedings, and as said above..light output was not a problem, there was too much of it (on my modestly small screen).

Now my buddy Gav and I had seen the HD1 strutting it's stuff at JVC's HQ in London some weeks before, but on a 10ft screen, Gav's initial thought's and mine too were it was a little soft, that is soft to what we were expecting from a digital, now for me, and guy's it's just my opinion here so no wars, but I find nearly all DLP pictures most unnatural in their sharpness and generally way over hyped in the colours.

Note I mentioned 'Nearly' all DLP's above until I saw something else recently but that's for another post.....

Remember my very first impression of its image was ...wow! but we have all tried on great looking shoes only to find they cut our feet up a couple of day's later... so living with it for a month was the only way to test it fully.

Now what I wanted to know was...would the lack of those pure Inky blacks really get to me or could I get used to the JVC, that’s what I thought was going to be the main Bugbear for me, now for all who have seen the HD1, lets be honest, are they close to CRT blacks? no, no and No! but boy was it an improvement over (slightly) earlier D-ILA/SXRD, so no slouch.

The more I viewed it's image the more I tried to convince myself the lack of those Inky blacks were not the end of world, after all I had to balance this with some of the HD1's strength's, small (I for one don’t care about that) very quiet, and even though my 9" beastie is no slouch in the light output department, by crt standards at least, this thing had more, even on low lamp mode and by now I had it's contrast down from it's default 30..down through25 and was starting to toy with settling on maybe even 20, I found it's black level default of 50 to be a pretty good place to stay.

Now to some of the crt guy's here mis-convergence on a crt for those not lucky enough to have a really stable machine is a pain, it sticks out like a sore thumb, and if and when it does we correct it..simple, now I am not going to say the JVC had terrible convergence because it didn't, but it wasn't perfect, and you can't fully correct it.

For the Digi-dudes who say 'ha you crt boys are always messing with our convergence' well it because we can...and they can't! other than the middle of the screen, but I have to say its convergence was more than good enough for me.

So after around 3-4 week's I decided to fire up the sleeping giant, my trusty 20:20 vision (that's what I call it) although not my normal test piece I decided to look at Dances with wolves again, being the first bit of material I viewed on the HD1, it seemed a logical place to start.

Now right away I missed the light output of the HD1, but also remember my tubes are still not at their best yet and only now at this moment on 407 hours (watched 'Death proof' last night..Doug) and I consider I run my beastie quite gently, Contrast is around 52, and my G2's...just 59 a piece for those interested.

Back to the image on DWW, whoa! now that’s how lush green prairie grass ought to look, and just look at the stunning colours, the textures in Costner’s clothing, it was all about the subtle shades and textures, no hint of a green flesh tone, no slight veil or digital noise...I call it a fine veil of scrim (do you guy's use that word over here? ) and here is one of the biggest shocks to me, my CRT it WAS indeed sharper although not hugely so say 10-15% and everyone who came round to view David and Goliath said the same thing.

But the very biggest difference of all, between the HD1 and the Vision 1.... I now had depth back in the image and it went wayyy back into the image, 3-4 weeks before had I really honestly thought that my Vision could be up for retirement, slap me with a wet fish someone.

And DVD on my CRT....the differences were even bigger, a 1080 panel sucks with SD...in comparison to the CRT, but, I have said it, and I will say it again...the HD1 has to be just about ( almost ) my favourite Digital, it's image will most likely be sharper than an unhealthy 9" and more light output for sure ( than most CRT's ) it's colours are damned good.

Yes, it really did suffer with SD material...sorry Digi-dudes but it's true but I also admit we are now all nearly living in a pure HD world..and that's true, ok all of us CRT guy's knew nothing was going to touch that CRT black level for the foreseeable future, but the lack of depth ... it really has me scratching my head.

I chose not to get hyper-technical here, just wanted to call it as I viewed it, oh 'I ask' you are correct too about this fast moving blurring we spotted it on one of my very fave demo discs, One night at McCool’s' and we thought wow never noticed on this disc before...I can even tell you the scene, checked it back on the CRT...it wasn't there?

Those of us with top notch CRT's still needn't have sleepless nights, 'ecrab' puts it perfectly...happy watching others spend their money for some time yet.

But...the HD-100 should be with me on Monday or Tuesday, already seen it weeks ago at the same JVC HQ, blacks are indeed much better, didn't notice any extra sharpness (same lens, just alloy barrel and Motorised) and colours..well I will save that till maybe next week, or later .

Sorry for the long one guy's but one sentence would have just been an Opinion.... but a longer review, well it's just much more of a description.

Now going to check the mailbox to see if Doug's sent me that movie...

James

[dbaisey]

James,
With one post I thought you were Tryg trolling again. My apologies. Doug

[AnalogRocks]

[AnalogRocks]

[crteaman]

Hi Doug,

Wondered what you were getting at, but to be honest.and i bet you had already worked it out when I said I was looking in on a thread on 'THAT' forum, it was this Tryg guy who had me scratching my head, just my opinion but this Guy Cliffy comes across as a real nice guy, and whats more he has a good sense of humour.

Now I love a good laugh even at my expense, but this chap you mention tryg, he seemed to come over as a bit harsh and rather abrupt and I was a bit taken back by his posts, now of course, I've not met either of these guy's and i'm sure Tryg is a real nice guy (?) maybe he just type's in an aggressive manner, but if you thought I was him...I get it.

Now, I don't want to appear stupid here, but can you chaps please explain the meaning of this term Trolling, in it's context in which I see it used on the forums, off course I know what a troll is in mythological and historical creature terms, but as a wacky Brit, I am not fully conversant with it's terminology? not pulling your legs either, really keen to learn its meaning..sounds darned funny if it's what I think it means.

I really hope my post didn't come across as a Digi' bashing thread either, I try to be as open minded and objective as I can, yeah..sure I'm passionate about CRT's we are all brothers in Arms in this section....to be honest CRT just amazes me even more as time goes on, and I will tell you why.

Consider for a moment that say back in 1993 if you were wealthy enough, you could have bought yourself a brand new 9500, now I also run an old Japanese laser disc system called Muse HI-DEF, any of you guy's know the system i'm talking about? a crazy spec Laser-Disc player (which made CLD97/99, etc looks like toy's) which played a 12" laser-disc via a single cable output (for picture) through a Muse hi-vision decoder....which was 1050 lines...off the disc..in 93!!!

Now that to me is far more amazing (given the timescale) than a BD or HD player today, yeah sure you had to be very wealthy..but it was there, and they made around 70-80 movies and a bunch of demo discs, a couple of which i have played to visitors and friends alike, and they are, trust me breathtaking.

Figure you were that same lucky (wealthy) guy...and 14 years later yes 14!! years everyone you still have that very same unit on your ceiling, my Math is real poor but I make that a duration of 728 weeks (is that correct?) times by, well how many movies do most guy's really average per week? say two? OK three = 2184 hours (someone please check my Math here) lets say 4 movies a week 2912 and some TV as well hmm same again guy's maybe? so lets double it gets us 5824 hours on the tubes.

Now if it was set up nicely from day one, rasters nice and large, and perfectly central and even more important the G2 levels were correct from day one, I reckon, and remember i'm talking domestic use here not commercial, so no cranked up G2's and Contrast etc, we would still have a spectacular picture, with no nasty burns and a whole heap of life in em' yet.

Now I don't know if we can get Tim to chime in here and give us an idea of how much a new 9500 would have been in 1993? but I reckon it would have made the 9500 one hell of an invesment, the same lucky owner would have certainly been through a few scaler upgrade's, but also would have been lucky enough to have viewed this same unit with Laserdisc, DVD, D-Theater, and now BD and HD, and still have a display device nailed to his ceiling which was worthy to keep there.

Now that's impressive eh? ok he may have chopped it in for an Ultra etc in 1999 or a bunch of other stuff.... but Henry's (crt projectors) ultra had 4000 hours on it when he sold it recently to a friend and customer of mine, it was a 2004 ultra and yes he watched two movies a night seven day's a week ..honest, and it was set up properly from day one..when we took the lenses off the tubes were still 'SNOW' white (hell the seven Dwarves even came out to inspect them ).

Anyway, just wanted to share these thought's with all of you, if Tim comes back with some cost's someone may want to do the math in more depth than I have touched upon in this post.

James

[emdawgz1]

Dudes , where is the eviltwin????

My link doesnt work anymore...

[AnalogRocks]

crteaman, 2 things.

Trolling. It's not about the mythological beast, although you will be called one if you 'troll'. It's more pertaining to fishing. There's a type of sport fishing called 'trolling'. You put out your line with the bait and run a little electric motor to slowly drive your boat through the watter. Then you see what -or in this case who- bites.

So for example you say D!gitals suck CRT's RULE! then you'll have the digital pundits coming out of the screen doors to defend how good their digitals are. You are baiting them into a 'fight' or heated discussion.


Second the 9500 didn't hit the scene until 1995. See this thread: https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=7700.html

So in your analogy above you should substitute 9000 where you have 9500.

[AnalogRocks]

crteaman, 2 things.

Trolling. It's not about the mythological beast, although you will be called one if you 'troll'. It's more pertaining to fishing. There's a type of sport fishing called 'trolling'. You put out your line with the bait and run a little electric motor to slowly drive your boat through the watter. Then you see what -or in this case who- bites.

So for example you say D!gitals suck CRT's RULE! then you'll have the digital pundits coming out of the screen doors to defend how good their digitals are. You are baiting them into a 'fight' or heated discussion.


Second the 9500 didn't hit the scene until 1995. See this thread: https://www.curtpalme.com/forum_archived/viewtopic.php@t=7700.html

So in your analogy above you should substitute 9000 where you have 9500.

[Dave Lister]

There is the difference between American language and spelling and English language and spelling.

American: Trolling

English: Trawling

Though with the American spelling of the word trawling (trolling) when used in the context of internet forums induces the image of a troll with a fishing rod and boat cruising around looking for someone to take the bait.
Quite appropriate methinks

[crteaman]

Analogrocks and davelister,

...thanks, Trawling...that makes perfect sense, like a fishing trawler, dragging it's nets and brings it up to see what its got.......yikes, 5 DLP owners, 3 LCD, 4 D-ila and 1 sxrd...owners a 'Monty haul' (only knew the term Monty haul cos I played D+D when I was a kid).

AR, I was being a bit lazy with the 93 thing, just chose that because it was when Muse came out, but you get my drift, oh whilst on differences in our language, I was watching Carlito's way a couple of weeks ago, and the scene where Penn has a garden party and asks Carlito for help...tells him this guy is going to be waiting for them in the water clinging to a BOOOEEY, whoa i had to back it up, a what...eventually the penny dropped...we call it a BOY (Buoy).

Do you think the guy in the water could have been an early digital owner?

Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me.

James

[Moose]

[crteaman]

AR, didn't you mean analog-gy

Any of you guy's going to CES in Sin City in January?

James