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zaphod
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 2002
Location: Cloverdale
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:10 pm Post subject: let's go to the movies |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | I had Zaphod come over tonight to check it out. I realized that after we watched the system for an hour or so that the projectors were completely unbalanced the Ultra was set to maybe 70% output, the ceiling one to 30-ish percent. Still, this thing kicks a$$.
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Weekends are interesting. long weekends doubly so. i spent this particular long weekend in a field between the mountains Ranier and St. Helens along with belly dancers, fire breathers and moderate porter. 7 hour drive back, 20 seconds to find nothing in duty and 2 minutes explaining to the border guard that i really didn't have anything to bring across - not even scotch. round it all out with unpacking in the rain, a well earned shower and catching up on email.
and then i did something i've never done before - i took my just cracked beer and corked it closed. Curt had the stack set up and was taking off the evening to watch some films. would i turn down the chance to take a look? hell no!
Curt was nowhere around when i arrived - very strange as he is usually either in the shop or outside wrapping PJs. Hemi the wonder mutt didn't quite know what to do, stand and attack or wag and greet. the big suck went for the pets. lucky me, as i don't think that i could take him in a one on one  Curt came up from below "Man you gotta see this, it's all downstairs" so we headed down, past the 4700 tubes in the house (ever wonder where all Curt's old and/or dead tubes go? let me tell you, they don't go very far.... man i just see a mixed media modern art sculpture in the works. Or his backyard. But we'll annoy the neighbour another time.)
Now, i've never really understood the gains that stacking gets you. Blending to me is a much more obvious gain wth higher resolution, more tube face used in a widescreen format and more bright without sacrificing tube wear - so what can stacking get you? well, apparently it gets you a whole lot.
Curt had "The Italian Job" lined up and showed the image to me with and without the lesser of the projectors. It's like going to the eyedoctor and choosing the various lenses. "Do you like this? Or do you prefer this?". Well, Johnny - we'll take door number two. WOW.
Curt's room needs work. lots of work. It has slashes down the ceiling. It has a Barco on it's side on the side. And speakers everywhere. Many are just stands for other speakers But in the dark, and between pizza and pop, who gives a flying hoot. But the old screen has been replaced by the tensioned screen, and the rolly cart with the NEC XG (now at my place) is gone and replaced by a second G90.
In a word, while the G90 is a wonderful projector, and while CRT is a great image, things got a whole lot punchier with the stack. Suddenly, the whole tone of the faces changed. Not the colour tone, but rather the effect or presentation of the face - i stopped looking at the image of a face and started looking at a face. Donald Sutherland's mug started to look like - well, Donald Sutherland's mug.
The scene we watched was Sutherland in the open air crowds talking on the cell phone, just before the heist. Even though the PJs could use a bit of focus adjustment (and who other than Cliffy and Clarence have 9 spare hours to tweek just the green tube?), the depth of field in these plaza scenes was phenomenal. Faces that were 30 feet in the distance were clear and not blobs. I haven't seen that good an image since my optician got the astig correctly set on my glasses. Just incredible.
Next up was Jackson's "King Kong" - i never saw this in the theatre, and was supposed to have a friend come over with it when i got my room finished - well, you know the story, it's never really finished, so i still hadn't seen the movie. To be honest I preferred the cinematography in "The Italian Job", but Jackson puts on a great show and King Kong has all the stops pulled. Dinosaurs, big bugs, beautiful blonde and one FREAKING huge ape. Again, depth of field and snap to the overall picture had me speechless. I knew that the images of New York were CGI'ed up from a set, but watching that Ape tumble downwards was perfect. Did anyone else expect a Wile Coyote puff of smoke, or was it just me
We all talk about how CRT is "more film-like" than LCD, DLP or whatever. Curt's setup stops being "more film-like" and has become "film". If i didn't know better, i would have thought he had a 70mm pj in the back complete with pimply faced teenager and reel markers.
| Curt Palme wrote: | | Line up people, I have a number of RGB active splitters and minty 8" sets to compliment the one you already have.. |
bastard.... you know that i'm spending part of the morning looking at HD-DVD plyers in the local stores. and you know how i'm stuck on getting that XGLC. Now i have to think about two... 
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JustGreg
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3098
Location: Kenosha, WI
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | Tim in Phoenix wrote: | | Zebu Fellenz wrote: | I remember that Tim (in Pheonix) tried this and ran out of adjustment on keystone (I think) when he tried to stack two 9500's side by side.
Erik |
It was fiendishly difficult to align, and one runs out of H linearity range first. |
maybe there is a mod that can be done to get this range extended, just like in the anamorph mod? Is it possible?
Athanasios |
Unless somebody knows how to reverse engineer and modify the OS 'taint gonna happen. Hmmmm....I know a guy who knows a guy....  .... but we don't wanna piss off the VDC folks. I wouldn't be surprised if they've already addressed this long ago and have the modified software in house ready to go. Wouldn't that be nice.
It's nice to see you're getting a chance to finally have a different kind of pj fun Curt. I'd say your audio eats mine for breakfast but I don't think yours would like the bad aftertaste. 
Greg
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Greg
"Is it ignorance or apathy? Hey, I don't know and I don't care!" --Jimmy Buffett
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Tim in Phoenix
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4409
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Guys!
We used to visit the Electrohome plant every year or two, and they have assembly areas and a back room to to try stuff out. They got bored one week and decided to start stacking ECPs on a fifteen foot screen. They said two was OK, and four looked pretty good but the fifth and sixth ECPs made no appreciable difference.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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antorsae
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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First! Congrats Curt on the setup.
I often wondered about Marquees and side-by-side stacking, but I've never seen a setup (picture) of Marquees side by side (even the Refence Imaging 9 pics are top/bottom stacking) so I think people considering stacking should look at the G90 or be OK with top/botton stacking.
Best - Andres
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| antorsae wrote: | First! Congrats Curt on the setup.
I often wondered about Marquees and side-by-side stacking, but I've never seen a setup (picture) of Marquees side by side (even the Refence Imaging 9 pics are top/bottom stacking) so I think people considering stacking should look at the G90 or be OK with top/botton stacking.
Best - Andres |
Yeah i have never seen it done either. But i'm the type who has to see it with my own eyes first. If it cant be done, then i'll join you and the rest of the blend crew! But This is at least a year away, so for now if the side bye side doesnt pan out i'l do a over/under config till i can set up a blend. Andres how gig is your screen going to be? And do you know what the screen throw formula for a blend usually is?
Athanasios
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Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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I really just did this for fun to see if
a) I could do it.
b) What did a quick 3 hour setup look like?
I'll post tonight how they held up as I finally (sadly) powered down last night, so we'll see how much they drifted. I'll keep these here as long as I can at this point..
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Athanasios, Tim Martin says there's not enough H to do it. Draganm tried it and found the same thing. I just don't think Marquees are built for side-by-side stacking. If you want to stack 'em, you need to STACK 'em -- one on top of the other!
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Tim in Phoenix
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4409
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: |
.......... And do you know what the screen throw formula for a blend usually is?
Athanasios |
0.90 to 1.0 on nine inch projectors, slightly less on eight inch, depends on the lenses.
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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | I really just did this for fun to see if
a) I could do it.
b) What did a quick 3 hour setup look like?
I'll post tonight how they held up as I finally (sadly) powered down last night, so we'll see how much they drifted. I'll keep these here as long as I can at this point.. |
Curt, my hushbox isn't ideal so my G90's run a bit hot but stay well within the operating temperature the G90's were designed for. If you were facing my G90's in my theater, the one on the left has 12K hours on it.
I have to touch up the projectors either once a week or depending on how they feel that day maybe once every 2 weeks.
It takes a whole 10 to 15 minutes to touch them up. No big deal.
If the mechanical setup is done correctly using MINIMAL zone or point convergence, your results as far as drifting will be very easy and quick to touch up. Especially on an over/under config.
For the G90's to be able to side stack, you have to use A LOT of green/red/blue zone on one projector to get the horizontal lines on a grid to line up. That's the good thing about the G90 though, as the electronics can handle it no problem.
You can side by side stack XG's as well. I've always wished that I could see more of the XG firmware in the G90.
Obviously the BIGGEST part about stacking that you want to be as good as it possibly can be is focus.
I've got 17K just in my G90's but imagine picking up a couple of minty XG's for 4 to 5K and you have seriously got one kick ass image that will wipe the floor with 99% of the digitals on the market.
Cliffy
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| Tim in Phoenix wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: |
.......... And do you know what the screen throw formula for a blend usually is?
Athanasios |
0.90 to 1.0 on nine inch projectors, slightly less on eight inch, depends on the lenses. |
Thanks Tim, I'll have to set my second projector that isnt mounted yet And max out the image and give it a shot. I dug up Ginos post on AVS "biggest blendzilla so far" and he had a throw distance of 113 for his 13 foot screen which I calclated as Screen width SW/1.38 156"/1.38=113" I'll try them both to see what gets more of the raster use. Your fomula puts it back another 27 inches for his screen not sure where he has it now.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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Tim in Phoenix
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4409
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | Tim in Phoenix wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: |
.......... And do you know what the screen throw formula for a blend usually is?
Athanasios |
0.90 to 1.0 on nine inch projectors, slightly less on eight inch, depends on the lenses. |
Thanks Tim, I'll have to set my second projector that isnt mounted yet And max out the image and give it a shot. I dug up Ginos post on AVS "biggest blendzilla so far" and he had a throw distance of 113 for his 13 foot screen which I calclated as Screen width SW/1.38 156"/1.38=113" I'll try them both to see what gets more of the raster use. Your fomula puts it back another 27 inches for his screen not sure where he has it now.
Athanasios |
Hello
Screen aspect ratio has a lot to do with throw formula; my screen is 1.92 so I can only speak to what I have on hand here; 2.35 may use less overlap and so the ratio changes.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:27 am Post subject: |
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Fired up the stack again tonight. Minimal drifting when it was cold, probably about as much as what I saw at Cliff's place. Watching it again tonight. I'm addicted..
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:58 am Post subject: |
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I'm curious what it is that affects the depth of field issue I hear people talking about a lot. From my perspective, a CRT projector is a device rendering a 2D image. It doesn't care what's in the image, and it certainly doesn't care or have any way of knowing how far back an object is in a scene.
So how is performance in the 'foreground' and 'background' different on different projectors when it's physically impossible for them to react to foreground pixels differently than background pixels?
The only thing I can think is that slight defocus is more readily apparent in slightly lower detail areas (eg, areas just out of the camera's focal distance) than in high detail areas that have a lot of 'poppy' frequencies to begin with. But this ought to be visible in res hatch patterns, not just in movie scenes.
Clearly, the projector isn't introducing new information to the scene's background faces. So what's contributing to that perception, I wonder. And how does it relate to what's really happening in the PJ?
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:02 am Post subject: |
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I believe what it is is lack of pixels. Digitals give an artificial sharpness that's great for text reproduction, not so good for pictures/video/graphics.
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:14 am Post subject: |
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That jibes with my personal experience - the 1080p digital we use in our motion platforms looks fantastic on the desktop and pretty equally good in driving and flight simulations, but video can't even touch the 808s. Meanwhile, the 808s at 1440x960 makes the windows desktop look like it's projecting through a shower curtain, while a HD WMV of a motocross rider with a day-old beard looks like you could sand your hardwood floors on the stubble.
But that still doesn't explain how slightly increased, unspecified PQ manages to turn data showing blurry faces into data showing clear faces. Even though the lack of pixel structure makes the output of video looks more natural, the projector is still resolving all the data coming in, so I don't think that explains the perception of increased depth of field.
The other possibility, of course, is that the increased DoF people see is more placebo effect than anything else - if $1000 per foot speaker cable has taught us anything it's that monetary expenditure has a medically measurable effect on perceived results.
Still, I think there's something real here. CRT people don't seem prone to the same levels of delusion that audio guys are - and this is a musician talking.
Just not sure what the something real is.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | Athanasios, Tim Martin says there's not enough H to do it. Draganm tried it and found the same thing. I just don't think Marquees are built for side-by-side stacking. If you want to stack 'em, you need to STACK 'em -- one on top of the other! |
yup, spent about 4 hours on it and ran out of a lot of things including H-lin and corner convergence range. I was both dissapointd and happy. Happy to not have to tear my HT apart to add another marquee but sad because I really wanted to do. you know, get back some of WOW factor you feel after you set up your first theatre many years ago.
Basically, what you REALLY need to do it is a room with 10 foot tall ceilings. That would accomodate a pair of piggy-back Marquee's without infringing on the view from tha back row of seats. I would expect an Over/under stack to be pretty dam stable since simple Keystone would handle the majority of the geometry errors. Still, I would strongly suggest a pair of Ultra's to save you the hassle produced by Banding in normal Marquee's.
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Gino
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 1363
Location: Trinity Beach, AUSTRALIA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| perisoft wrote: |
The other possibility, of course, is that the increased DoF people see is more placebo effect than anything else - if $1000 per foot speaker cable has taught us anything it's that monetary expenditure has a medically measurable effect on perceived results. |
This is definitely not a placebo. People who visit my home theatre who have no interest in PQ or others that have digitals all are astounded at the realism, 3-dimensionality and depth of field. I imagine it has to do with the naturalness of the image, ie. no pixels and natural colors, as well as the high on/off CR and true blacks.
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