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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the helps guys! It's cold and raining today. I'll jump back on it the next nice day we have.
Maybe I should buy a chick-mobile like Curt has. 
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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OK look, I'll be the first to admit that a 2002 Rav 4 looks like a design from engineers rejected from AMC..
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:25 am Post subject: |
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Hey Phil. Been away for a few weeks and just read your post. Thought I'd give my 2 cents. Just so you dont think this is just another guess, I have been in the auto repair field for 36 years, been service manager for Ford and GM in past years and have been factory trained on electronic engine controls since they first came out and am now semi retired.
Your problem of hard start cold and cycling the ignition switch multiple times and then starting are definitely the symptoms of a faulty ignition module. I have also seen replacing the module being only a temp fix with the probleming returning.
The reason for this is poor quality parts, even if OEM. On the few vehicles I worked on with this problem, I replaced the module with the next newer year module, if it is interchangeable.
I would also maybe check with your local factory parts dealer to see if there is an updated module for your vechile as there my have been a problem with the original stock.
I would also recommend trying replacing it with an OEM module if your mechanic did not.
Its like projector parts. sometimes if you use off brand parts the unit will keep blowing the same part over and over.
As i said this is just my 2 cents, but its your money and headache. Good Luck
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jask
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 10187
Location: kamloops BC
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | Hey Phil. Been away for a few weeks and just read your post. Thought I'd give my 2 cents. Just so you dont think this is just another guess, I have been in the auto repair field for 36 years, been service manager for Ford and GM in past years and have been factory trained on electronic engine controls since they first came out and am now semi retired.
Your problem of hard start cold and cycling the ignition switch multiple times and then starting are definitely the symptoms of a faulty ignition module. I have also seen replacing the module being only a temp fix with the probleming returning.
The reason for this is poor quality parts, even if OEM. On the few vehicles I worked on with this problem, I replaced the module with the next newer year module, if it is interchangeable.
I would also maybe check with your local factory parts dealer to see if there is an updated module for your vechile as there my have been a problem with the original stock.
I would also recommend trying replacing it with an OEM module if your mechanic did not.
Its like projector parts. sometimes if you use off brand parts the unit will keep blowing the same part over and over.
As i said this is just my 2 cents, but its your money and headache. Good Luck |
I think so too!! and I was thinking that I have seen this sort of problem with a bad control module pickup. Check the wire leading from the control module to the pickup (if it is external) or the conections if internal- the pick up is just a hall effect sensor and you can test the output with a digital multimeter....if you are so inclined
http://www.picotech.com/auto/tutorials/trigger-signals.html
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Or you could get a pump from a low miles vehicle from the local junkyard. Odds are that any parts that look good that
are taken off an obviously wrecked vehicle were still good at the time of the wreck.
Incidentally, the word is DEFINITELY, not DEFIANTLY.
One is to be certain or sure, the other is to be very unwilling to cooperate.
CJ
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | Hey Phil. Been away for a few weeks and just read your post. Thought I'd give my 2 cents. Just so you dont think this is just another guess, I have been in the auto repair field for 36 years, been service manager for Ford and GM in past years and have been factory trained on electronic engine controls since they first came out and am now semi retired.
Your problem of hard start cold and cycling the ignition switch multiple times and then starting are definitely the symptoms of a faulty ignition module. I have also seen replacing the module being only a temp fix with the probleming returning.
The reason for this is poor quality parts, even if OEM. On the few vehicles I worked on with this problem, I replaced the module with the next newer year module, if it is interchangeable.
I would also maybe check with your local factory parts dealer to see if there is an updated module for your vechile as there my have been a problem with the original stock.
I would also recommend trying replacing it with an OEM module if your mechanic did not.
Its like projector parts. sometimes if you use off brand parts the unit will keep blowing the same part over and over.
As i said this is just my 2 cents, but its your money and headache. Good Luck |
Well you certainly have the credentials macgyver655!  Not that the rest of you aren't knowledgeable, but macgyver655 has a LOT of professional experience.
When my mechanic replaced ignition control module, the problem did temporarily go away, so it does make sense. I didn't however think that going out so fast and going out twice made much sense (the first one lasted a couple of months, the second a couple of weeks). After all, the original lasted 90k miles. That the problem is moisture and temperature related doesn't seem to point to the module either, but it makes more sense to me that the ignition wires because of the good idle, and that when trying to start it, it goes from getting what appears to be no fire or missing really badly, to idling perfectly when it finally cranks.
After the fuel pump was eliminated as a probable problem (that's no longer considered a candidate CJ), my feeling was that something else was bad, which was damaging the ignition control module. Or maybe it was due to an intermittent poor connection. This was why I wanted to clean and seal all the connectors, especially the connector that plugged into the ignition control module. I thought it might be possible that the connection was poor, and when the ignition control module was replaced, it temporarily reestablished good contact. As everyone knows, that turned out not to be the problem.
The ignition control module was from Auto Zone. It has a life time warranty and they exchanged it for free the 2nd time it was replaced. I guess they would replace it again for free, but if it's not going to last that does me little good. This is the module: http://tinyurl.com/3amwrj
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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I just purchased an ACDelco ignition module: http://tinyurl.com/29yj7b . Hopefully this will do the trick!
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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One more thing Phil, while you're in there check that the carbon button in the centre of the distributor cap is still there. I've had them fall out and cause all sorts of fun things to happen
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CRT.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:15 am Post subject: |
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Will do Analog!
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Well the ignition control model just arrived. It's a Delphi, not an ACDelco. Does Delphi make OEM parts for for ACDelco?
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | | Well the ignition control model just arrived. It's a Delphi, not an ACDelco. Does Delphi make OEM parts for for ACDelco? |
Yes. GM spun off Delphi a few years back.
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HD done right!
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks! I was fuming when I opened the box. My whole reason for mail ordering it was to get OEM. I initially thought they shipped me another after market part.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yes. GM spun off Delphi a few years back. |
Correct, that was back in '98.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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I've been working on and off on the van since I last posted. I installed the ignition module. I installed it while the motor was cold and hadn't been run since the day before. So, when I started it after installing the module, if the problem wasn't fixed, it would probably not run right.
While it seems like it might start a little easier, it still runs rough when cold. 
So after it warmed up and was running smooth, I got a squirt bottle and sprayed water on various electrical parts, as was suggested. I'd spray one part, give it a little time to soak in the connectors (if it was going to), occasionally revving the motor to check how it was running. If nothing changed I'd wet down another part, and so on. I ended up dousing everything on the cowling side of the motor and it was still running fine. I decided to take it for a test drive, and low and behold, with a load on the engine, it ran fairly rough! Well I had drenched everything so I had no idea what caused the problem. Later last night after it had dried out, I drove it around until I was sure all moisture had been burned off, and again I sprayed down one component at a time, this time driving it after doing so..actually sometimes driving WHILE doing so!  I couldn't get to the spark plugs, but I think I got everything else on the cowling side. I isolated the problem to something involving the distributor cap and/or the ignition wire connections on the distributor cap. Spraying the ignition wire connections on the left side of the cap did nothing. Spraying the right side connections might have had a slight effect but I'm not sure. Most likely it didn't. Spraying underneath the cap did nothing. Covering the top of the cap with water consistently made it run rough. No exceptions.
Today I sprayed down all the connections I could find on the hood side. Doing so created no problems.
Wetting the top of the distributor cap STILL doesn't make it run as rough as it previously ran. Maybe replacing the ignition control module has something to do with that.
As always, I'm stumped. What do you guys think?
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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I shouldn't say "stumped". That makes me sound more ignorant than I actually am. Even I can deduce that it's most likely the cap or plug wires--or both. 
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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In your post you say after installing the module it started ok but ran rough.Then ,if I understand correctly after you drove it awhile it ran ok. Now today you didn't say if it started ok, or if it ran rough after it started. You just said you couldn't recreate the poor running cond.. Is it now starting ok and running ok cold and warm?
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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macgyver,
It ran slightly rough when cold this morning. We're having nice weather in Dallas right now, so it's hard for me to tell exactly how much, if at all, the module improved things. It does seem like it helped a little bit, but it will have to rain before I can tell for sure.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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One thing to remember is, before changing the module the engine has been hard starting and running poorly, which will foul up the spark plugs. After running for awhile the heat can burn off some of the carbon but not usually all of it. A fouled plug can sometimes give you a good idle but run poorly under a load. Also after cool down and upon starting the following day the plug still being partially fouled can again foul more giving you poor running condition until heat again burns off some of the carbon. And the cycle continues. I would check the plugs to see if they are dark or a light grey like they should be. I would also check the engine oil for a gas smell. Pull the stick and smell it. It shouldn't be a strong smell. Gas can get into the oil from not being properly burned when the engine is running poorly and will dilute the oil which beside lubricating the engine also helps to seal the piston rings for good compression and in controlling the hydraulic lifters for valve opening and closing, all of which can cause poor running condition. Have fun 
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ronholm
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 12111
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:19 am Post subject: |
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Did ya check the MAP voltage yet?
Does it ALWAYS run rough until warmed? Or will nice weather it run OK... There could be a problem with your engine management in "Open loop" Programing... ( bad computer). It sounds to me like it just might be lean in "open loop". (for one reason or another)
Did ya check fuel Pressure?
You need a OTC 4000E.. Ya could diagnose this thing in a couple minutes...
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:44 am Post subject: |
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macgyver and Ron,
Well you guys are confusing me. The water squirting test seems to point to the distributor cap and/or spark plug wires. You guys have completely ignored that. Is squirting water on the cap and wires something that will cause it to run rough even when there is no problem? I would have thought you should be able to wet them down without incident. Am I wrong?
I just got through applying dielectric grease to the spark plug wire connections on distributor cap (one of the few places I didn't already apply it). At first this seemed to fix the wetting the cap down problem, but I kept squirting it and driving it, and it eventually started running rough.
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