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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:45 am Post subject: |
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macgyver and Ron,
Well you guys are confusing me. The water squirting test seems to point to the distributor cap and/or spark plug wires. You guys have completely ignored that. Is squirting water on the cap and wires something that will cause it to run rough even when there is no problem? I would have thought you should be able to wet them down without incident. Am I wrong?
I just got through applying dielectric grease to the spark plug wire connections on distributor cap (one of the few places I didn't already apply it). At first this seemed to fix the wetting the cap down problem, but I kept squirting it and driving it, and it eventually started running rough. 
Did I mention I hate working on cars? 
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:27 am Post subject: |
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Sorry Phil for not addressing that issue but there are so many suggestions flying around in this post it's hard to keep track. So here's my opinion. Squirting water on anything electrical or hot is not a good idea. First, if it's hot the water can cause it to crack and damage the part. Second electricity and water dont mix well. In my opinion spraying water on the cap, wires or plugs can cause a misfire even if they are good. However I do agree on damp cold mornings the dist cap can form condensation on the inside and cause problems. This has been a long time problem and some manufactor's even put a vent with a small cap on the dist cap. The next time in gives you a problem, (if it does) then pop the cap off and look for condensation in there. If you find any then we can address possible solutions. Also, spraying water around those locations can cause this condensation affect in the cap.
The suggestion of spraying carb cleaner or whatever it was to find a vacuum leak is correct, however as also stated in that post, you have to be sure none of the spray enters the throttle body or you will get a false positive.
Other then that I don't suggest spraying anything in there.
If you have other questions, don't hesitate to ask. I'm sure we can get to the bottom of your problem.
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ronholm
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 12111
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | macgyver and Ron,
Well you guys are confusing me. The water squirting test seems to point to the distributor cap and/or spark plug wires. You guys have completely ignored that. Is squirting water on the cap and wires something that will cause it to run rough even when there is no problem? I would have thought you should be able to wet them down without incident. Am I wrong?
I just got through applying dielectric grease to the spark plug wire connections on distributor cap (one of the few places I didn't already apply it). At first this seemed to fix the wetting the cap down problem, but I kept squirting it and driving it, and it eventually started running rough. |
Yep... Get that thing wet enough.... then sooner or later Water will get through and make it run rough
On my 4x4's I would always seal em tight with silicon... 
Try spraying a "wire dryer" and see if that cures anything (I doubt it)
If your wires are in decent shape.. (Check em in the dark with engine running.. you will see the arcs if they are no longer serviceable, and the cap and rotor are not caked in carbon, I would have to say your problem is somewhere else.. My experience is those things don't cause internment problems...
Beside I thought you were supposed to be spraying carb cleaner to see if engine rpm picked up indicating a vacuum leak? 
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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The weather was very mild and dry last night and today. When I drove it around 11 this morning, it ran a tad rough. I went to the parts store and bought some silicone spray. Once the motor was hot and running smooth, I doused the cap and wires in silicone. I sprayed it heavily hoping that it would penetrate and fill the gaps that the water was getting thru. I'll see if that makes any difference in cold starting tomorrow.
macgyver,
Not that I know, but the fouled spark plug theory doesn't make sense to me. If the spark plugs are carbon fouled, and once the engine warms up it burns it off, then when I kill the engine the spark plugs should be ok. When I try to start it the next day the spark plugs should be fine and not be an issue in hard starting. Right?
Ron,
I forgot to get carburetor cleaner. What about using starting fluid? I think I already have some.
I think I'm done until tomorrow. I need a break from the frustration.
PS: When it's warmed up it runs very good. That's what keeps me working on it. I'd probably just get rid of it and get something else if it didn't run as good as it does when warm.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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Well if your not sure about the spark plug theory then there is an easy solution. Pull them out and check them. If they are clean and light grey then you dont have to think about them any more.
Mechanics just like any other repair person can probably think of 20 things that might cause a particular problem. They must then check various possibilities to rule them out until they find the actual problem. Occasionally you may find it on the 1st or 2nd try but sometimes you go through all 20 until you find it. Skip over 1 option and you sometimes end up back at that one only to find that it was that and if you hadn't skipped over it you would of found it sooner.
Pulling the plugs and checking them is one of the 1st steps in diagnosing a running problem. If they are good then move on. Trying to rule out something by theory is not as good as physically checking it.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: |
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Phil, I think you've eliminated water or moisture as the cause of the problem. 35Kv or whatever a coil puts out will be very sensitive to water vapor, dousing it with water should REALLY affect idling/running if that is indeed an issue.
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BTS
Joined: 15 Oct 2006
Posts: 79
Location: vulcan
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:30 am Post subject: |
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is the/has the M.I.L. been on--?, also look at the "vin" #, what are the digits from position #8 and #10 ??
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ronholm
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 12111
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: |
Ron,
I forgot to get carburetor cleaner. What about using starting fluid? I think I already have some.
I think I'm done until tomorrow. I need a break from the frustration.
PS: When it's warmed up it runs very good. That's what keeps me working on it. I'd probably just get rid of it and get something else if it didn't run as good as it does when warm. |
Ether/Stating fluid should work... Just test a little bit at the TB and see if it idles up for a second... Carb cleaner has the biggest effect.. but hey... if it works..... it works...
Have you been able to test MAP voltage yet???
Or... Better yet... Can you test O2 voltage? Cold the reading will NOT be accurate.. But the numbers should be interesting...
Once warm the numbers will typically bounce from .1 to .9 volts... If you pin the throttle the number will settle in... (the goal is to not let the turbo car drop below .8 So just keep turning the boost up until she starts to lean out..  )
But anyway.. It will mean something if that thing starts running smooth the same time as the O2 starts giving you a clean read...
On the dodges they go out of "open loop" based on the water temperature reading so the O2 is typically working good before that.. but....
How "warm does it have to be b4 she smooths out?
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erikjohn
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 636
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | Phil, I think you've eliminated water or moisture as the cause of the problem. 35Kv or whatever a coil puts out will be very sensitive to water vapor, dousing it with water should REALLY affect idling/running if that is indeed an issue. |
I have disagree here. He was not dousing it with water or forcing water to penetrate areas it shouldn't with a pressure washer. He was using a spray bottle. There is not a single thing that on his vehicle that shouldn't be sealed tightly enough to resist moisture from a spray bottle. The high voltage systems in todays vehicles really need to be sealed extra tight because moisture will wreak havoc. I have pressure washed down engine compartments at the car wash with no issues to many times to count on many different models. If there is a hairline crack in the distributor cap and there is moisture or even humidity it can cause it to arc and misfire. These issues with spark or lack of it or lack of it's strength are always amplified when the engine is put under load or when it is cold and may not be noticed when idling. Fuel pressure or not getting enough fuel would also be affected under load but you wouldn't get misfires it would just fall on its face when you hit the gas. If you are having problems with the timing advance mechanism(electric or vacuum) it would cause it to fall on its face under load or have reduced power and possible misfires but probably wouldn't even notice when in neutral and reving, however it wouldn't rev up as quick.
If that think is arcing, spray it at night it complete darkness. If it is arcing outside the cap you will see. If moisture is getting inside the distributor cap it is trapped in there and has to be cleaned, this should go for any item such as a module, etc where moisture would get trapped and the problem would be constant not intermittent. Your issue sounds like a surface problem that dries it self out in the engine compartment....on dry hot days or after it had run for some time.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | Well if your not sure about the spark plug theory then there is an easy solution. Pull them out and check them. If they are clean and light grey then you dont have to think about them any more.
Mechanics just like any other repair person can probably think of 20 things that might cause a particular problem. They must then check various possibilities to rule them out until they find the actual problem. Occasionally you may find it on the 1st or 2nd try but sometimes you go through all 20 until you find it. Skip over 1 option and you sometimes end up back at that one only to find that it was that and if you hadn't skipped over it you would of found it sooner.
Pulling the plugs and checking them is one of the 1st steps in diagnosing a running problem. If they are good then move on. Trying to rule out something by theory is not as good as physically checking it. |
macgyver,
The reason I haven't looked at the plugs is it requires pulling the front wheels and me getting inside the fender wells while it's on the jack. I don't like getting under cars (irrational or not, I have a fear of it), so if it comes down to that, I'm going to pay someone else to do it. After already paying my mechanic $600-$800 to no avail, I'm trying to eliminate all other potential problems first. I know I'm making it difficult for you to help me, but I'm just not ready to do that yet.
| Curt Palme wrote: | | Phil, I think you've eliminated water or moisture as the cause of the problem. 35Kv or whatever a coil puts out will be very sensitive to water vapor, dousing it with water should REALLY affect idling/running if that is indeed an issue. |
Curt,
What you say makes sense, but I thought when you ran thru puddles in the rain the motor got drenched, so I thought everything had to be able to handle getting soaked. I guess not.
[quote="ronholm"] | Phil Smith wrote: | Have you been able to test MAP voltage yet???
Or... Better yet... Can you test O2 voltage? Cold the reading will NOT be accurate.. But the numbers should be interesting... |
Ron,
i wouldn't recognize them if they bit me in the ass.  The only reason I knew what the ignition control module was is I watched my mechanic replace it twice.
| Quote: | | How "warm does it have to be b4 she smooths out? |
Pretty much all the way. 10-15 minutes of driving. It improves a little in the process of warming up, but mostly it hits a point where it immediately disappears.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| erikjohn wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Phil, I think you've eliminated water or moisture as the cause of the problem. 35Kv or whatever a coil puts out will be very sensitive to water vapor, dousing it with water should REALLY affect idling/running if that is indeed an issue. |
I have disagree here. He was not dousing it with water or forcing water to penetrate areas it shouldn't with a pressure washer. He was using a spray bottle. There is not a single thing that on his vehicle that shouldn't be sealed tightly enough to resist moisture from a spray bottle. |
Erik,
That's what I assumed. That makes sense to me.
| Quote: | | If that think is arcing, spray it at night it complete darkness. If it is arcing outside the cap you will see. If moisture is getting inside the distributor cap it is trapped in there and has to be cleaned, this should go for any item such as a module, etc where moisture would get trapped and the problem would be constant not intermittent. Your issue sounds like a surface problem that dries it self out in the engine compartment....on dry hot days or after it had run for some time. |
I sprayed it at night and didn't see any sparks. If the water is trapped inside the cap, it doesn't seem like it would go away when warm.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| BTS wrote: | | is the/has the M.I.L. been on--?, also look at the "vin" #, what are the digits from position #8 and #10 ?? |
BTS,
I don't know what M.I.L. is. The 8th digit is W and the 10th is Y.
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ronholm
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 12111
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: |
| Quote: | | How "warm does it have to be b4 she smooths out? |
Pretty much all the way. 10-15 minutes of driving. It improves a little in the process of warming up, but mostly it hits a point where it immediately disappears. |
If it just idles up to operating temperature will it run smooth or must it be driven?
It sounds like the second it kicks into "closed loop" the puter is able to compensate for whatever problem the engine might be having...
I would start thinking about checking ignition timing.. Maybe a piece of debris in a/the fuel injectors.. fuel pressure regulator sending just to much or to little pressure to the fuel rail...
Uhh... Maybe even cam timing off a little for one reason or another...
Things like that... All the things the engine controls.. Timing and fuel.. are all running off factory preset programing according to thottle postion, MAP voltage, and somtimes air/battery temp, until the engine warms to a certain point and starts using the O2 and other feedback information to tweek the "tune"
Also a faulty MAP reading would make it run like crapp... HEHE.. That still would be the first thing I would check... and take a vac line directly from intake manifold vac straight to the MAP....
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Just about three days ago I would have hired a excavator to dig a BF hole and push it in.
Take that sucker to the shop before you spend more screwing around with it that it would have cost in the first place.
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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I don't like working on cars and that was never my first option. I've already had a mechanic work on it twice. $600-$800 later and the problem still exist, so I decided I'll work on it myself, regardless of how unqualified I am.
I need to concentrate on work right now, so I put the cowling back on yesterday (I've been driving without it on for a week). It runs, and runs great once it's warmed up, so it's not like I'm without wheels. I'll work on it later when I have more free time and I'm not so frustrated. I appreciate all of the help and I will be digging this thread back up in the future. You have been warned!
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BTS
Joined: 15 Oct 2006
Posts: 79
Location: vulcan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:44 am Post subject: |
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m.i.l. is the "check engine" or s.e.s. (service engine soon) lamp--fault codes relating to driveability may be stored in the on board computer that will lead to diagnostic flow charts allowing proper diagnosis, some codes do not turn on the lamp--has anybody done a scan test ??--what code(s) are showing ?? (most g.m. dealers will perform a scan test at no charge to better understand what type of appointment they may have to book--stop and see if they can/will do this for you and report any codes that are stored)
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ronholm
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 12111
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| BTS wrote: | | m.i.l. is the "check engine" or s.e.s. (service engine soon) lamp--fault codes relating to driveability may be stored in the on board computer that will lead to diagnostic flow charts allowing proper diagnosis, some codes do not turn on the lamp--has anybody done a scan test ??--what code(s) are showing ?? (most g.m. dealers will perform a scan test at no charge to better understand what type of appointment they may have to book--stop and see if they can/will do this for you and report any codes that are stored) |
He just needs to fleabay a OTC 4000E and be done with it.. They charge 100 bucks for "diagnostic" checks around here... Shoot I bought my OTC for 150 bucks and have been using it for years...
Looks like they might even be going cheaper than that these days....
Hooked up to a laptop the info has proven invaluable at the dragstrip...
(His van might be to new though??)
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| BTS wrote: | | m.i.l. is the "check engine" or s.e.s. (service engine soon) lamp--fault codes relating to driveability may be stored in the on board computer that will lead to diagnostic flow charts allowing proper diagnosis, some codes do not turn on the lamp--has anybody done a scan test ??--what code(s) are showing ?? (most g.m. dealers will perform a scan test at no charge to better understand what type of appointment they may have to book--stop and see if they can/will do this for you and report any codes that are stored) |
The "service engine soon" light sometimes comes on and stays on when I start it. The next time I start it it might be off again. 90% or more of the time it's off. The 2 times my mechanic worked on it his scanner indicated the ignition control module was bad. I think Auto Zone will also scan it for free. I'll try to get them to scan it next time I'm passing by one.
What about the VIM letters? What significance do they have?
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | I don't like working on cars and that was never my first option. I've already had a mechanic work on it twice. $600-$800 later and the problem still exist, so I decided I'll work on it myself, regardless of how unqualified I am.
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Hey, just for fun, can I throw a bit of your own attitude in your face here?
You're always on about customer service etc, and trust me, I've had my own runaround with incompetent mechanics.
If you really spent that kind of money and the problem isn't resolved, why not go back to the mechanic and DEMAND that he repair it?
I was like you back with my GM van, I spent upwards of $3K to get the gas economy where it should be, and the first $2K I should never have spent. I too went away, tail between my legs, but looking at it now, I should have demanded that he repair it CORRECTLY and that he either didn't charge for subsequent labor, or I should have taken him to small claims for repairs and labor that didn't need doing and didn't change the symptom.
Just a thought..
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Curt,
My mechanic's scanner said the ignition control module was bad, and he replaced it. Both times he did this it temporarily fixed it. I called him when it went bad again, and again he again wanted to change the module. He says it's not uncommon to get bad ones, so he still thought it was the problem. I wasn't sure he was right, and at that point I started working on it myself, and eventually started this thread. Since changing the module to an OEM with little improvement, I'm pretty convinced that's not the problem.
Anyway, the reason I don't bitch at him about it is because I really don't think he did anything wrong. He did what was logical at the time. Unfortunately it seems I have a hard to pin down problem.
I've never had a vehicle with a difficult problem like this. Every problem I've had with a car was easy to fix, either by me or a mechanic. I guess I've been lucky, and now it's payback time.
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