|
As this forum is rarely used anymore, we've locked it. Feel free to browse and read. Questions? Please reach out to us directly. Cheers! |
|
 |
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006 Posts: 527
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Which would also make a CRT projector running at the bandwidth I'm running mine at impossible to meet or exceed the sharpness of a CRT blended image. |
I couldn't agree more - The video frequency you are running at is almost 2-1/2 times what Nashou is using even though the final picture resolution is the same.
| Quote: | | And if you also compare the two shots, my shot has a better gamma in the lower areas. |
I don't see it that way. The fact that you can see the subtle differences in the dark area behind the distant woman with Nashou's shot indicates to me that your gamma in the low end is too high as it is all lost in your shot.
Bob
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My Gamma is set for 2.4 all the way down to 10 IRE from what my i1 Pro can measure.
I did find a possible problem with my i1 Pro as it is used over time. After about 30-40 minutes of use
I think it looses readability of red on each and every Click(read) of CalMan.
Doc is sending me his to compare over time. SpectrCal might have missed it when in their Lab if they
only did a single run of greyscale and Gamut. I found I need an hour cool down to
get the same consistent reads for red values in the lower than 40 % White.. Not sure what is going on but
I noticed that after a calibration run of longer than an hour it just doesn't look right. This is why I am having a hard time
doing a true and proper matching of the PJ's.
Web Gallery, the hosting site i use that comes with .mac accounts does all the resizing. I do not think I can alter this.
Ok uploaded to Imagehsack to test, full size of Camera.
2848x2136
sorry i didn't want to resize it.
Thats how it looks if standing 2 feet away from the screen, maybe closer. but form seating it will of course look perfect.
One more for fun!
If you guys want to down load pics you can see them on my web gallery site
http://gallery.me.com/nashou.66#100166&view=grid&bgcolor=black&sel=302
The ones at the end are the latest. you can see many progressions of the blend.
Athanasios
_________________ Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5689 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Boilermaker wrote: | | Quote: | | Which would also make a CRT projector running at the bandwidth I'm running mine at impossible to meet or exceed the sharpness of a CRT blended image. |
I couldn't agree more - The video frequency you are running at is almost 2-1/2 times what Nashou is using even though the final picture resolution is the same |
No, the resolution is not the same. How did you come to that?
| Quote: | | And if you also compare the two shots, my shot has a better gamma in the lower areas. |
I don't see it that way. The fact that you can see the subtle differences in the dark area behind the distant woman with Nashou's shot indicates to me that your gamma in the low end is too high as it is all lost in your shot.
Bob[/quote]
The key here was "overall" meaning all of the shots in that group. I think you're trying to use his shot as a reference to how it should be, and you should never do that without first, being present when the shot was taking. Second, not seeing and knowing what I have going on here.
And I'll prove my point later when a get everything dialed in and showing very deep blacks and shades of black to gray while still maintaining that same level of brightness you see now in my shots.
point here in the following shot. Check out the black areas and objects in this shot, and do the comparison. Look at Chris hair, moustache and eyebrows. Also look at the object right next to his right shoulder.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006 Posts: 527
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | No, the resolution is not the same. How did you come to that? |
Easy - The Fifth Element is a 2.40 AR ratio film and your projector is using only 800 of the available 1080 horizontal lines producing a picture. Therefore, your final "picture" resolution is 1920X800@72Hz refresh.
Nashou's blend also has a final "picture" resolution of 1920X800@72Hz refresh.
Therefore, 1920X800X72 = 1920X800X72. They are the same.
Bob
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5689 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Boilermaker wrote: | | Quote: | | No, the resolution is not the same. How did you come to that? |
Easy - The Fifth Element is a 2.40 AR ratio film and your projector is using only 800 of the available 1080 horizontal lines producing a picture. Therefore, your final "picture" resolution is 1920X800@72Hz refresh.
Nashou's blend also has a final "picture" resolution of 1920X800@72Hz refresh.
Therefore, 1920X800X72 = 1920X800X72. They are the same.
Bob |
The real numbers for 1920X1080P BLENDING is a total of 1920 vertical lines and 1050 horizontal lines.
This same discussion comes up a lot, where some seem to think that 800 horizontal lines is all you need because of the image being displayed on the raster.
I know this for a fact, blends is one of the things I do most. And if we could bump down the resolution to only 800 horizontal lines, then that would make things a lot better for the CRT projectors I maintain, which all are doing 1050 horizontal lines. And that is what is horizontal rate in the Blendzilla Blend unit that William and a few others have, though they also do 800 horizontal lines, it's just that the professional industry would not sanction that resolution for true 1920X1080P blended resolution.
The 800 lines are larger in size than the 1080 lines, which are drawn thinner. And that's where you get your finer detail.
Edit: forgot to mention that the 16:9 aspect blends are either 1050 or 1200 horizontal lines.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
From 12 feet away it makes no difference Mike, i see no scan lines, and do you see any in my super huge picture
in the post above?So 800 is the perfect Horizontal res for a scope blend.
Also my processor does 1:1 pixel mapping.
So it matches each end every ACTIVE pixel of a 2.4 movie which has a pixel dimension of 1920x800,
2.35 has 1920x817 and 1.78 obviously has 1920x1080 pixels.
So the pixels in are the same going out. So in my 1064 vertical lines those are the only lines from the
original 1920 being displayed, the rest are cropped out. Also the 800 horizontal lines are all there from
the original 2.4 movie since the extra black bars are not resolved in a blend nor should they be.
So yes i do use 1064x800 on each PJ and not 1050, the blend zone is 208 pixels wide subtract that combined resolution of 2128 and you get 1920. Simple arithmetic.
Athanasios
_________________ Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
JOneil
Joined: 05 Jul 2010 Posts: 47
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mp20748 wrote: |
The real numbers for 1920X1080P BLENDING is a total of 1920 vertical lines and 1050 horizontal lines.
This same discussion comes up a lot, where some seem to think that 800 horizontal lines is all you need because of the image being displayed on the raster.
I know this for a fact, blends is one of the things I do most. And if we could bump down the resolution to only 800 horizontal lines, then that would make things a lot better for the CRT projectors I maintain, which all are doing 1050 horizontal lines. And that is what is horizontal rate in the Blendzilla Blend unit that William and a few others have, though they also do 800 horizontal lines, it's just that the professional industry would not sanction that resolution for true 1920X1080P blended resolution.
The 800 lines are larger in size than the 1080 lines, which are drawn thinner. And that's where you get your finer detail.
Edit: forgot to mention that the 16:9 aspect blends are either 1050 or 1200 horizontal lines. |
Say WHAT????????
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006 Posts: 527
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | The real numbers for 1920X1080P BLENDING is a total of 1920 vertical lines and 1050 horizontal lines. |
That very well might be what you choose to use, but Nashou sends 1064X800 to each of his two projectors. He uses the TVOne blend units which have the capability of selecting any output resolution and refresh rate up to a very high frequency. I know this because I have the same hardware and I have changed my output res/ref. several times. It works!
| Quote: | | This same discussion comes up a lot, where some seem to think that 800 horizontal lines is all you need because of the image being displayed on the raster. |
Actually 800 is all you need unless you want to play with black bars. Its called "Active Area Scanning". The movie is 2.40. If he wants to watch a football game in 16:9, then he would use all 1080 lines!
| Quote: | | The 800 lines are larger in size than the 1080 lines, which are drawn thinner. And that's where you get your finer detail. |
Mike - I really don't think you meant that. Does that mean that when I watch unscaled NTSC that all the lines will get fat and I won't see any scan lines???
Bob[/quote]
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 8508
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
OH.......MY.........GOD
Thats all I'm sayin!!!!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5689 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Boilermaker wrote: | | Quote: | | The real numbers for 1920X1080P BLENDING is a total of 1920 vertical lines and 1050 horizontal lines. |
That very well might be what you choose to use, but Nashou sends 1064X800 to each of his two projectors. He uses the TVOne blend units which have the capability of selecting any output resolution and refresh rate up to a very high frequency. I know this because I have the same hardware and I have changed my output res/ref. several times. It works!
| Quote: | | This same discussion comes up a lot, where some seem to think that 800 horizontal lines is all you need because of the image being displayed on the raster. |
Actually 800 is all you need unless you want to play with black bars. Its called "Active Area Scanning". The movie is 2.40. If he wants to watch a football game in 16:9, then he would use all 1080 lines!
| Quote: | | The 800 lines are larger in size than the 1080 lines, which are drawn thinner. And that's where you get your finer detail. |
Mike - I really don't think you meant that. Does that mean that when I watch unscaled NTSC that all the lines will get fat and I won't see any scan lines???
Bob | [/quote]
OK, I know this would be hard to understand in theory, so I'll have to prove it another way.
A display device that resolves 1920X1080P fully, should have complete resolution detail totally through out the image. That is that real purpose for using that resolution, right?
So in this case, if what you're saying is true and the TV ones are providing every pixel necessary for that rate, then the end result would be a complete and total resolve of the information, and would be shown by a complete and clean detailed image over the entire screen surface.
Now, let me say that that's not going to happen in this case. He's not going to get a completely resolved image in the backgrounds running that resolution.
I've tried it a many time, it's juts not going to happen, though the math does add up.
When it gets darker, I'll prove my point and post a image that I'll take on my projector, and he does the same. the proof will be in how well the background is resolved.
Another thing. One of the main reasons for running blends is resolution performance. mainly because it allows you to use the entire aspect of the tube. So that means that a blend will allow extreme resolving power over a 16:9 image in my CRT setup, which should be limited because i'm not able to take advantage of MOST of the CRT surface.
So with that, he should be able to resolve every little nuance in the backgrounds, especially since it's reproducing every vert/horiz pixel - right?
But trust me on this, it's not going to happen.. In no way should a true 1920x1080P blended setup not be able to reproduce all of the info, pixels, lines, dots etc.
But hey, stick around and watch what happens..
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5689 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JOneil wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: |
The real numbers for 1920X1080P BLENDING is a total of 1920 vertical lines and 1050 horizontal lines.
This same discussion comes up a lot, where some seem to think that 800 horizontal lines is all you need because of the image being displayed on the raster.
I know this for a fact, blends is one of the things I do most. And if we could bump down the resolution to only 800 horizontal lines, then that would make things a lot better for the CRT projectors I maintain, which all are doing 1050 horizontal lines. And that is what is horizontal rate in the Blendzilla Blend unit that William and a few others have, though they also do 800 horizontal lines, it's just that the professional industry would not sanction that resolution for true 1920X1080P blended resolution.
The 800 lines are larger in size than the 1080 lines, which are drawn thinner. And that's where you get your finer detail.
Edit: forgot to mention that the 16:9 aspect blends are either 1050 or 1200 horizontal lines. |
Say WHAT????????  |
The commercial blend units uses 1050 and 1200. The newer designed for HT units have more selectable rates.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5689 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Concerning the lines being fatter...
when 800 lines is drawn on a compressed section (16:9) of a 4:3 aspect tube surface, the lines are tighter. When the same amount of lines are also drawn on a full 4:3 aspect tube surface, the lines are stretched farther apart from each other.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5689 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ok, the test would be to prove the resolve power, which should be quite easily done when compared to a single CRT surface that's producing that entire rate on an even smaller surface. And it does it with almost twice the bandwidth.
Which should be technically impossible for a single CRT to resolve full 1080P over a blended setup that uses almost the entire CRT surface of TWO CRT's, and does it with almost half the bandwidth requirement..
Wouldn't you agree?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Boilermaker
Joined: 21 May 2006 Posts: 527
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | OK, I know this would be hard to understand in theory, so I'll have to prove it another way.
A display device that resolves 1920X1080P fully, should have complete resolution detail totally through out the image. That is that real purpose for using that resolution, right?
So in this case, if what you're saying is true and the TV ones are providing every pixel necessary for that rate, then the end result would be a complete and total resolve of the information, and would be shown by a complete and clean detailed image over the entire screen surface.
Now, let me say that that's not going to happen in this case. He's not going to get a completely resolved image in the backgrounds running that resolution.
I've tried it a many time, it's juts not going to happen, though the math does add up.
When it gets darker, I'll prove my point and post a image that I'll take on my projector, and he does the same. the proof will be in how well the background is resolved.
Another thing. One of the main reasons for running blends is resolution performance. mainly because it allows you to use the entire aspect of the tube. So that means that a blend will allow extreme resolving power over a 16:9 image in my CRT setup, which should be limited because i'm not able to take advantage of MOST of the CRT surface.
So with that, he should be able to resolve every little nuance in the backgrounds, especially since it's reproducing every vert/horiz pixel - right?
But trust me on this, it's not going to happen.. In no way should a true 1920x1080P blended setup not be able to reproduce all of the info, pixels, lines, dots etc. |
I read this several times, but still don't understand what you said! Must be way above my pay scale.
| Quote: | | But hey, stick around and watch what happens.. |
I'm not going anywhere. Can't wait to see what happens!
Bob
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
We are not saying your PJ does not resolve 1080p@72, You said in my set up 1920x800p@ 72 will NOT show the same details.
It will and does. It doesn't have anything to do with my PJ or bandwidth, it has to do with the 1:1 pixel mapping.
if a pixel is at location 500x339 in the active area of the image then my scaler will put it there on my output.
Now if that pixel falls into the area not scanned like the black bars above and below it will not even be looked at in my Processor.
Only the active areas. I do not have my scalers set up for 1080p at all as i don't watch many movies of that Aspect ratio(1.78).
And if i do i just use my Oppo's 1/2 zoom which shrinks down the 1.78 to fit in the 2.40 screen hight wise. when that happens i do loose the 1:1 pixel mapping since it can't fit 1080 lines into the 800 output and some scaling is done.
Bob runs his I think with 1080p out, not sure though. At one point i will add that tot he set up but it involves a lot for me to do.
The resolutions are created on a PC program then uploaded to the VP. And the way these units work is the other memories do not save the the aspect ratios separately( one thing I hate about them) since they are used in commercial set ups that keep the same aspect ration to facilitate less issue when switching sources constantly and doing the fade in and outs they were designed to do.
Now explaining all that I am late for dinner at my sisters.
Athanasios
_________________ Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5689 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Boilermaker wrote: |
I read this several times, but still don't understand what you said! Must be way above my pay scale.
Bob |
I been there myself.
The key here is when you use the math, it should all add up. And if it does, the proof would be in the end result. And that would mean like I've already said, that blended setup should easily blow away any single CRT setup when it comes to resolution, especially the very higher resolutions like 1920x1080P 72hz...
It should waltz around a single CRT. and when that happens, the image should be super sharp with absolutely ever substance, nuance, lines, dot, pixel, etc far exceeding anything you'll ever get to see happen when compared to a single CRT projectors that's running more of less twice the bandwidth of the blend - right?
Last edited by mp20748 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5689 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nashou66 wrote: | It doesn't have anything to do with my PJ or bandwidth, it has to do with the 1:1 pixel mapping.
Athanasios |
1:1 pixel mapping is exactly what I'm giving you. And that means that when you can achieve 1:1 pixel mapping, the end results should be what?
What should happen in an image that's capable of full 1:1 pixel mapping of 1920x1080 lines?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 8508
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
There's more to resolving an image then the area of the tube face being used. This also applies to 1:1 pixel mapping.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5689 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| macgyver655 wrote: | | There's more to resolving an image then the area of the tube face being used. This also applies to 1:1 pixel mapping. |
Really, and what else would that be?
help me out here, since the discussion started indicating that the mentioned resolution sent from a blend proccesor into two CRT projectors would properly resolve the full 1920x1080 content.
Oh, and I think we should be able to get to this without involving my projector. I'll completely leave it out of this..
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
|
Forum powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
|
|