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TerakRall
Joined: 11 Sep 2020
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:04 am Post subject: CRT recommendations for 240p gaming and 480i video? |
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Looking to add a CRT projector to my setup - I currently use an RGB monitor for 240p retro gaming. Rather than finding a huge CRT set, I'm considering a projector as I already have a 92" 16:9 screen set up for my LCD projector. Are there any specific models I should keep an eye out for as being better for 240p and 480i video (VHS, LaserDisc, etc.)? Does the presence of a line doubler negatively affect 480i VHS quality? I'm new to the CRT projector world and want to make sure I can avoid any pitfalls. Most eBay projectors I see are in the $500-$1k and up range - is that what I should reasonably expect, or should they be cheaper at this point? Many thanks!
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Tim in Phoenix
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4409
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:23 am Post subject: |
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Guys
I am not aware of a CRT projector built after 2012 so parts and support on most of these is unavailable. Anything you buy other that a late model Barco or Marquee would be considered disposable.
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TerakRall
Joined: 11 Sep 2020
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| Tim in Phoenix wrote: | Guys
I am not aware of a CRT projector built after 2012 so parts and support on most of these is unavailable. Anything you buy other that a late model Barco or Marquee would be considered disposable. |
Yes, I assumed this as it's much the same with CRT monitors. I've been looking at earlier models due to size and weight, and because I'm only aiming for the lower resolutions. Any potential pitfalls with that approach other than the given that parts will be scarce?
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: CRT recommendations for 240p gaming and 480i video? |
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Welcome to the forum!
| TerakRall wrote: | | Looking to add a CRT projector to my setup - I currently use an RGB monitor for 240p retro gaming. Rather than finding a huge CRT set, I'm considering a projector as I already have a 92" 16:9 screen set up for my LCD projector. Are there any specific models I should keep an eye out for as being better for 240p and 480i video (VHS, LaserDisc, etc.)? |
Any CRT projector will do 480i as that's the absolute lowest resolution that they were designed for. In most cases that will (or should) result in bit fat scanlines on most screen sizes. The higher end the projector the sharper those scanlines will be.
So really any CRT projector will work for you. You should read the CRT primer to get some understanding on the various technologies used in them: http://www.curtpalme.com/CRTPrimer.shtm
Keep in mind that it's mostly written from a home theater standpoint, one of which was to get RID of scanlines and use these projectors to display HD.
| Quote: | | Does the presence of a line doubler negatively affect 480i VHS quality? |
I'm not sure I understand the question. A line doubler is a type of video processors that does scaling by taking a 480i signal to 480p by doubling the output rate so that 2 passes are not required (it becomes progressive instead of interlaced - the 'p' and 'i' you see after the number). Purpose is to try and eliminate scanlines. Most people who use CRT projectors used to double (480p) or triple (720p) or quadruple (960p) the signal to the point where the scanlines touch to make them go away. Since HD (1080p) became common most CRT projector owners would set the resolution to either 1080i (same bandwidth as 540p) for lower end CRT projector models or 1080p for higher end models so that the full 1920x1080 pixels are shown. If your source is only 480i then that isn't needed. More about 1/2 way through the primer on this page: http://www.curtpalme.com/CRTPrimer_14.shtm
There are better/worse video processors of course, but something as simple as 480i -> 480p is fairly well understood.
Video processors that scale are pretty rare these days - the only high end one left on the market is the one we sell here called the Radiance: http://www.curtpalme.com/Radiance.shtm
But that's complete overkill for CRT projector gaming. The Radiance is mostly used in high end home theaters (both digital and CRT) for reasons other than just scaling.
Most sources these days scale. On a PC you just set whatever resolution you want. Most DVD or Blu-ray players or gaming boxes are the same - just set the output resolution you want. If retro gaming then yes, you may want some sort of analog scaler to take 480i up a bit. Depends on the projector, screen size, etc. But that said, I thought fat scanlines were one of the things people wanted in retro CRT gaming? Just like on CRT monitors/TVs.
| Quote: | | I'm new to the CRT projector world and want to make sure I can avoid any pitfalls. Most eBay projectors I see are in the $500-$1k and up range - is that what I should reasonably expect, or should they be cheaper at this point? |
Other than a few of the highest end 9" models most CRT projectors should be free. See our BUY/SELL forum.
If you just want to toy around with one pick up something lower end for free and see.
Cheers!
Kal
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Welcome fellow gamer. I picked up a pair of SONY 1040's for $40 plus $20 gas so don't drop big money on a CRT projector unless it's a high end unit.
Not sure if the old SONY'S will display 240p correctly. Which consoles do 240p output?
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HD done right!
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pj-toso
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 69
Location: Norway - Oppland
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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A computer like the Commodore 64 had a resolution of 320 x 200, it was output progressively to match pal and ntsc inputs of tvs. The tvs showed the image progressively.
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Disclaimer: My postings are subjective and not facts.
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TerakRall
Joined: 11 Sep 2020
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | Welcome fellow gamer. I picked up a pair of SONY 1040's for $40 plus $20 gas so don't drop big money on a CRT projector unless it's a high end unit.
Not sure if the old SONY'S will display 240p correctly. Which consoles do 240p output? |
240p is really 480i, as it is a 15Khz signal. 240p is generally anything pre-PS2 - Nintendo, Super Nintendo, Nintendo 64, Sega Genesis, Sega Saturn, PlayStation 1, Turbografx, etc. After that you're getting into 480i/p and above.
There's a tempting eBay auction for Sony VPH-1251Q with only 795 hours on it, but it's in Virginia, which is on the no-travel list for New York (and I'm legally required as a teacher to report to my employer every day whether I've traveled into a forbidden state). They're looking for $400 though, and from what all of you have been saying, that's way more than I should be paying for a CRT projector in 2020.
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TerakRall
Joined: 11 Sep 2020
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: CRT recommendations for 240p gaming and 480i video? |
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| kal wrote: |
| Quote: | | Does the presence of a line doubler negatively affect 480i VHS quality? |
I'm not sure I understand the question. A line doubler is a type of video processors that does scaling by taking a 480i signal to 480p by doubling the output rate so that 2 passes are not required (it becomes progressive instead of interlaced - the 'p' and 'i' you see after the number). Purpose is to try and eliminate scanlines. Most people who use CRT projectors used to double (480p) or triple (720p) or quadruple (960p) the signal to the point where the scanlines touch to make them go away. Since HD (1080p) became common most CRT projector owners would set the resolution to either 1080i (same bandwidth as 540p) for lower end CRT projector models or 1080p for higher end models so that the full 1920x1080 pixels are shown. If your source is only 480i then that isn't needed. More about 1/2 way through the primer on this page: http://www.curtpalme.com/CRTPrimer_14.shtm
There are better/worse video processors of course, but something as simple as 480i -> 480p is fairly well understood.
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I guess I'm coming from the retro gaming mindset that scaling = bad, which is why a CRT projector appeals because it can display sources in their native resolution. The shows I'd want to watch on VHS originally aired in 480i on TV, so I guess what I'm asking is how authentic/inauthentic the result would look line-doubled to 480p.
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| TerakRall wrote: | | AnalogRocks wrote: | Welcome fellow gamer. I picked up a pair of SONY 1040's for $40 plus $20 gas so don't drop big money on a CRT projector unless it's a high end unit.
Not sure if the old SONY'S will display 240p correctly. Which consoles do 240p output? |
240p is really 480i, as it is a 15Khz signal. 240p is generally anything pre-PS2 - Nintendo, Super Nintendo, Nintendo 64, Sega Genesis, Sega Saturn, PlayStation 1, Turbografx, etc. After that you're getting into 480i/p and above.
There's a tempting eBay auction for Sony VPH-1251Q with only 795 hours on it, but it's in Virginia, which is on the no-travel list for New York (and I'm legally required as a teacher to report to my employer every day whether I've traveled into a forbidden state). They're looking for $400 though, and from what all of you have been saying, that's way more than I should be paying for a CRT projector in 2020. |
While 240p and 480i are the same 15.75KHz scan rate they are not the same. Not all displays can handle 240P. Where you get that awesome thick scan line with blank line in between.
I have several PS1's, and a couple of N64's. I've never done the A/B testing to see what 240p vs 480i looks like. The two SONY 1040's are at my buddies place and my 1252 is kaput so I can't test right now. I too would like to see what 240p looks like IF the projector can display it.
| TerakRall wrote: |
I guess I'm coming from the retro gaming mindset that scaling = bad, which is why a CRT projector appeals because it can display sources in their native resolution. The shows I'd want to watch on VHS originally aired in 480i on TV, so I guess what I'm asking is how authentic/inauthentic the result would look line-doubled to 480p. |
The main purpose of the 480i to 480p scaler was to fill in the scan line gaps on 7" CRT projectors. Likewise the line quadrupler was meant for the 9" projectors to run at 960p. You end up filling the gaps and getting more light output from the tube face. Less black lines = more light lines. 480p twice as many as 480i, 960p 4x the light lines = more light output.
As for how it looks? Pretty good. Especially if you use an older doubler or quadrupler like a Faroudja or one of the other high end units that, back then, generally cost between $12 000 - 40 000 bucks. I have one of each. I do love surplus! The doubler was around $100 shipped, The quad I got for free because it was "obsolete".
For a fun little scaler try a Extron DVS-204 or DVS-304 scaler. Make sure you ask the seller to power it up before shipping. They were made during the time of the capacitor plague. Going price is $40-100 each. Difference between the scalers is 204 only scales Standard Def. 304 will scaled HD signals.
Not every scaler can handle 240p though. Do a little search-foo before purchasing.
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TerakRall
Joined: 11 Sep 2020
Posts: 7
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, looks great indeed. I suspect the 7" projectors would be a good match. The smaller ones you can even move by yourself (maybe). Where as the 9" are 250-275lbs.
Too bad about the quarantine thing. I'd head over to my buddies and plug the N64 into one of the SONY 1040's. He's got a kid with a lung issue so it can wait. Just in case.
If the Halloween show is a go this year I'll see if I can do it then. We use to use the 1040's as eyes on the house: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3q-wd6CWYs
You can see the smaller size of the SONY 1040 as compared to the DVD player in this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN7H_2ziBQU
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HD done right!
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_in_peace_
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 152
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Go for the Sony D50, looks like a super famicom 
A flawless result with NES and Cine 9
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcFlXATEiS8
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