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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 305
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | Mike-
This is a very difficult series of posts to follow. Calling Nidi bipolar and not backing that up with a corroborating PM or email evidence makes it a faceless accusation. Based on my limited interactions with him I've found that he's a VERY patient individual who's paid you a lot of money in the hopes of receiving a top flight video chain. He hasn't called you out in the manner MAK did so I'd tread lightly here. While I understand that you feel your under attack don't lump everyone into the same bucket. If you have proof that he and his calibrator stated your work to be of sufficient quality then post it; otherwise don't go there.
Stop freaking out every time someone ships a set of your boards to Kurt. Your work has been sent all over the place across the past 2 decades. Nash, Dragan, Steve Flynn, Greg Eisenmann, Nictech, etc. are just but some of the notable hobbyist and technicians known to have had your mods sent to them. Sending stuff back to you internationally is both time consuming and expensive. Kurt is a stone's throw from Nidi and like it or not he is the most qualified individual on that side of the pond to evaluate Marquee performance (whether you like him or not) and do board level repairs. Furthermore, you have had quality control issues over the years (as you have rightly acknowledged) and Kurt has fixed your boards for not only himself, but Greg, myself and likely other people as well. As great as your VIM is (and it's all that and a bag of chips) more often than not has required repairs to function properly. |
Thanks Justin,
taken from Mike Parker's bottom line:
We're no longer offering Mods. There are other options available from other sources these days. We are still supporting any previous work.
yes there are , any they are GREAT!
and we do not want any support for any previous work, we tried that for the last 14 years!
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: |
Where has that left me? According to several engineers I have exceeded what the original manufacturer was not able to do, in bandwidth and noise reduction. The two key elements in image perfection. So I've accomplished a lot. Scoot at VDC invited me down there that time years ago, because he wanted my insight on a board project he was working on. He is also one of those design engineers that have acknowledged my accomplishment wit these projectors. And just like how someone can do what they want with their boards, I can also do what I want with my R&D. |
As someone who uses your boards I believe you have improved upon the original design in both BW and noise reduction quite substantially based on what I've seen on screen via test patterns and actual content. You acknowledge Gabor's results because he follows up his comments with technical proof; i.e. following the rules when stating his findings. So while you hold external parties accountable to that level of professionalism (and I don't disagree) you don't hold yourself accountable to this when making claims about performance improvement via your modifications. You don't post screen shots of scope readings and/or identify your methodology for testing so while the image may in fact be better you have not offered a means of quantifying it. To your point, it's your R&D so you are free to do as you choose but it's clear that you hold others to a standard of which you don't necessarily hold yourself.
| Quote: | That SMPTE pattern is a basic means of showing what you suspect to be the actual bandwidth. Do ask yourself why Gjaky has not been posting the SMPTE, but instead use another means. I too, use another means, because the SMPTE only represent what the video chain may be doing, but only good test methods and tools can be used to rightly make the claim. You see, there are ways to make that pattern look right, yet the video chain is not up to par. And there is also the condition of the tubes and that some tubes will respond very different with the same video chain. So a SMPTE should never be used to verify the bandwidth of a video chain, that would require more complex testing and test gear. The video chain and the projected image should be evaluated separately, and indicate as such. That's why I use the term "it should" because of the various external devices that can impact the actual, like source, tubes, setup, etc
Do you think it would have been right or fair that I should have been contacted and made aware when a problem was discovered wit the boards? |
You've probably forgotten more about the Marquee than most of us will ever know and WHEN your VIM's work they offer a level of performance which is night and day beyond the stock configuration. Your QC issues over the years have been well documented on this forum. While I agree that he should contact you I don't agree he should have to send it back over the pond and wait forever and a day to get the issue resolved by you. Your turn time is known to be slow and the international component only adds to that dilemma. MAK could take you to town on this and he's not even over seas so I can totally understand why Nidi wouldn't want to send it back to MD.
I understand that the SMPTE is not and should not be the only means for evaluating BW but since you have never provided any other empirical evidence to support your work (scope readings, etc.) you don't leave your customer (or potential customers) with anything to go on from a quantitative perspective. If not for the SMPTE we'd have NO way to evaluate your BW gains scientifically.
_________________
Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: |
As someone who uses your boards I believe you have improved upon the original design in both BW and noise reduction quite substantially based on what I've seen on screen via test patterns and actual content. You acknowledge Gabor's results because he follows up his comments with technical proof; i.e. following the rules when stating his findings. So while you hold external parties accountable to that level of professionalism (and I don't disagree) you don't hold yourself accountable to this when making claims about performance improvement via your modifications. You don't post screen shots of scope readings and/or identify your methodology for testing so while the image may in fact be better you have not offered a means of quantifying it. To your point, it's your R&D so you are free to do as you choose but it's clear that you hold others to a standard of which you don't necessarily hold yourself. |
I acknowledge Gabors methods of testing. I've not seen nor have I heard of his end results, unlike what you've indicated I have been able to do so many times over the years. And being able to or wanting to post shots showing how and what I've been doing the GET THOSE RESULTS, have just not been something I felt would make sense these later CRT days. Not like I've never post those same findings, much like a researcher has and usually will show where they are going. Now once they get there, why bother?
| Quote: | | You've probably forgotten more about the Marquee than most of us will ever know and WHEN your VIM's work they offer a level of performance which is night and day beyond the stock configuration |
Well, thanks for acknowledging that I've been able to reach the mountain top, and the great work I've done with the VIM mods.
| Quote: | | Your QC issues over the years have been well documented on this forum |
True and so have the many that did not have these issues, and supports why they were still a strong sell for so many years. And you guys for sure were fully on board and didn't jump ship because of those same problems... if I remember right, you both told me I should have stopped working on the older boards. And maybe another reason why you guy cherry pick the boards.
| Quote: | | While I agree that he should contact you |
My point on this is that he SHOULD HAVE CONTACTED regardless. But thanks for agreeing on this, because that was a terrible wrong thing to have done and done so in the way it was done.
| Quote: | | I don't agree he should have to send it back over the pond and wait forever and a day to get the issue resolved by you |
We never got this far, so this is a moot point. he could have simple notified me that there was a problem, and RESPECTFULLY said he would prefer to not wait for a repair and move on. The problem once more is not what he did, it's what he did not do and his attitude and actions that were wrong.
| Quote: | | I understand that the SMPTE is not and should not be the only means for evaluating BW but since you have never provided any other empirical evidence to support your work (scope readings, etc.) you don't leave your customer (or potential customers) with anything to go on from a quantitative perspective. If not for the SMPTE we'd have NO way to evaluate your BW gains scientifically. |
It's hard to respond to this, because of all the product that we've been purchasing, not one of the projector manufactures have provided any "Empirical data" nor has any of the other manufactures also done the same. All of that stuff is either in-house or unavailable when you request it. An Electrohome engineer explained it to me this way when I asked about it. He said the department that oversees spending and cost, would not have them producing something no one ever ask for. And since they are required to provide manuals and diagrams, they only put what is require in them. And that is also why that data does not exist in the manuals. You see, no one has really challenged the industry on bandwidth issues. I took this to mean I should also not waste time on something that people neither had interest in, nor would it have any real benefit for them. As you yourself had also said, I have proved that i was able to make a great product. And beside the issues of board work etc. People obviously were more concerned with getting the boards, than they were with those few issues..
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 305
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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funky write tracking at max light output 4,5fl, higher contrast setting make the projector shut down on full white screen
10% window
25%
100%
Last edited by nidi on Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:27 pm; edited 2 times in total
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: |
I acknowledge Gabors methods of testing. I've not seen nor have I heard of his end results. |
Raising a baby boy is time consuming  other than that I consider the work on the boards to be done in terms of development.
I'll have to send out a VNB-DB (AD835) and an ULTIMATE VNB-DB (AD834) very soon, so I'll try to take at least an SMPTE screenshot on each, I know I owe you with such a screenshot still...
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| nidi wrote: | | funky write tracking at max light output 4,5fl, higher contrast setting make the projector shut down on full white screen |
Your calibrator would either be a complete moron to have not noticed these severe problems, and we both know he is not. Or something really strange has happened to your boards, because in no way would your calibrator not raised the flag on that setup. As we know already, that he stopped for a lesser problem that had to be corrected, so how in the world did he overlook these problems. This is some radical stuff here.
The report I got from you on his last setup, the one where you both were very impressed, was near perfect results. And of course, your worrying about the light output on a set of boards that were not from that batch that had that problem, was proven as I said and was demonstrated right there in your presence. To now, these results are FAR, FAR from what happened on your screen when he was there. And we're talking about someone who really knows what he is doing...
Question and since you know him better than I do, can you imagine these results being a same as what he would have experienced when he was there?
I'm clear here, because I had things confirmed when he showed up and that included your worries about light output, that he thought was very good...
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: |
I acknowledge Gabors methods of testing. I've not seen nor have I heard of his end results. |
Raising a baby boy is time consuming other than that I consider the work on the boards to be done in terms of development.
I'll have to send out a VNB-DB (AD835) and an ULTIMATE VNB-DB (AD834) very soon, so I'll try to take at least an SMPTE screenshot on each, I know I owe you with such a screenshot still... |
No need to explain sir. You have your priorities as they should be, and that is more important and we know you'll do well once things change and you can get back to the work. First things first sir, and they is no need for you to confirm anything with me.
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 305
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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Mike, how did you measure them before you shipped them out?
how did they track after repairing them?
my calibrator rejected the boards right after we found the problems, do;t you remember me
sending you an e-mail teling you that we had to use stock Marquee boards?
Don't call my calibrator a moron, PLEASE!
this is very unprofessional behaviour!
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jbltecnicspro
Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 512
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: |
It's hard to respond to this, because of all the product that we've been purchasing, not one of the projector manufactures have provided any "Empirical data" nor has any of the other manufactures also done the same. All of that stuff is either in-house or unavailable when you request it. An Electrohome engineer explained it to me this way when I asked about it. He said the department that oversees spending and cost, would not have them producing something no one ever ask for. And since they are required to provide manuals and diagrams, they only put what is require in them. And that is also why that data does not exist in the manuals. You see, no one has really challenged the industry on bandwidth issues. I took this to mean I should also not waste time on something that people neither had interest in, nor would it have any real benefit for them. As you yourself had also said, I have proved that i was able to make a great product. And beside the issues of board work etc. People obviously were more concerned with getting the boards, than they were with those few issues.. |
So not to stoke the flames, but...
While I understand why Electrochrome wouldn't release bandwidth measurements because no one asked for them, your boards have always been sold as having many improvements over the stock form. I don't remember if they were explicitly advertised as having more bandwidth, but if you were selling these boards as an improvement, why wouldn't you want to share the bandwidth measurements?
It's like buying aftermarket parts for your car - horsepower and torque improvements are what people are usually after, and sure enough, the manufacturers of said parts include dynometer readings to back their claims of improving performance.
It's all moot now of course, since you don't sell them anymore. But it's just something that's always been a little confusing to me.
On another note, since CRT is pretty much dead, have you ever thought of just open-sourcing your secret sauce boards and sharing exactly what you've been doing to them all these years? I, at least, would be fascinated by these.
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 305
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| jbltecnicspro wrote: |
On another note, since CRT is pretty much dead, have you ever thought of just open-sourcing your secret sauce boards and sharing exactly what you've been doing to them all these years? I, at least, would be fascinated by these. |
That would have saved the boards.
Mike's paranoia people stealing his great work , putting everything under an epoxy snot.
how do you think you'd have ever been able to repair something under these?
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 305
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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4 perfectly good boards going to waste
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| nidi wrote: | Mike, how did you measure them before you shipped them out?
how did they track after repairing them?
my calibrator rejected the boards right after we found the problems, do;t you remember me
sending you an e-mail teling you that we had to use stock Marquee boards?
Don't call my calibrator a moron, PLEASE!
this is very unprofessional behaviour! |
Your calibrator is Steve, and if you look back at what I posted, you'll see I'm not saying he was moron.
I've looked through my PM and emails, but had erased most of my PM's and there is where the main "First Impressions" PM's should have been.
I'm also puzzled as to why there has not been any conversation or discussions on this since October. I had been under the thought that your boards had been working fine all that time. I know we had discussed lenses and a few other things, but none of those emails are sharing you having a problem with the boards, nor can I find the one where you had talked about the abundance of sharpness. I'm stoked that there could have been a problem for those many months going back to last year, yet no discussion on there be a problem in any of the correspondence after October.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| nidi wrote: |
how do you think you'd have ever been able to repair something under these? |
I have a means an method to remove that, and that's how I'm able to repair them.
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 305
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | nidi wrote: |
how do you think you'd have ever been able to repair something under these? |
I have a means an method to remove that, and that's how I'm able to repair them. |
Don't you think this could have caused some of the problems ?
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 305
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | nidi wrote: | Mike, how did you measure them before you shipped them out?
how did they track after repairing them?
my calibrator rejected the boards right after we found the problems, don't you remember me
sending you an e-mail telling you that we had to use stock Marquee boards?
Don't call my calibrator a moron, PLEASE!
this is very unprofessional behaviour! |
Your calibrator is Steve, and if you look back at what I posted, you'll see I'm not saying he was moron.. |
Nope , wrong, it's not Steve.
I told you his name.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| jbltecnicspro wrote: |
While I understand why Electrochrome wouldn't release bandwidth measurements because no one asked for them, your boards have always been sold as having many improvements over the stock form. I don't remember if they were explicitly advertised as having more bandwidth, but if you were selling these boards as an improvement, why wouldn't you want to share the bandwidth measurements?
It's like buying aftermarket parts for your car - horsepower and torque improvements are what people are usually after, and sure enough, the manufacturers of said parts include dynometer readings to back their claims of improving performance.
It's all moot now of course, since you don't sell them anymore. But it's just something that's always been a little confusing to me |
Dealing with the bandwidth issue and wanting to guarantee or assure the stated results is not an easy thing to do, because to confirm bandwidth by means other than using proper test gear and procedure for the video chain, would for sure involve both screen and source device on the customers end. Not every 1080P source device would be 1080P proper (not a good reference for testing) and it would also involve a proper setup, because the top two line groups of the SMPTE pattern (6), would also require a fair to good Stig and focus setup. There can be other variables that can affect a good to fair overall outcome. So it's best to not get into guaranteeing something that could have a many external variables preventing the end results
[/quote]On another note, since CRT is pretty much dead, have you ever thought of just open-sourcing your secret sauce boards and sharing exactly what you've been doing to them all these years? I, at least, would be fascinated by these. [/quote]
I've giving thought to that.
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 305
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="mp20748"] | nidi wrote: |
how do you think you'd have ever been able to repair something under these?
I have a means and method to remove that, and that's how I'm able to repair them. |
but why don't I ever get a good working set from you, why oh why?
didn't you check them out? I feel like it's a year ago, we had the same problems.
why can't you deliver a good working set without problems for a change?
my first impressions were good, sharpness good, but you keep forgetting that I informed you
about the problems after we tried to dial in , couldn't do it , sent them over for repairs , had to wait a long time for you to do it, and get back this.
This is not customer service I expect.
don't you think that's unfair to your customer having to send boards back and forth over and over and over,
promising getting an even better performance the greatest that ever was and then failing on all
the problems.
did you check your work? and if yes, how did you do it?
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| nidi wrote: |
Nope , wrong, it's not Steve.
I told you his name. |
Ok, I forgot. But I know without doubt he knows what he's doing.
[/quote]Don't you think this could have caused some of the problems ?[/quote]
No, this epoxy has been approved and used for this purpose. If things work before applying it, it will work afterwards.
I have a Marquee that was offered to me sometime back that the person had replaced it with a Epson digital. I'm going there Friday to remove the boards. I'll give them a good going over and see if they can be used to replace your boards. I would also like to keep on the table an open option to correct what you purchased from me, because I can't fill in the blanks of a long period of not hearing or knowing what was the status of those boards. And also know your being pleased with the stock boards, would be because you are used to them. And in no way would a set of stock boards be pleasing to anyone who has seen these particular boards in action. Plus there would be a clear and huge different between the two. And that 03 will really put things on another level. That one I would rather you hold onto, because it has a special noise mod done to it, that fixes a problem with those board. And though I would love to own it, I can't do a equal swap, nor would I feel comfortable taking it off your hands, knowing it has so much more potential over a stock 02
So I'll be working on replacement boards this friday, but at the same time, the warranty repair will remain open.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="nidi"] | mp20748 wrote: | | nidi wrote: |
how do you think you'd have ever been able to repair something under these?
I have a means and method to remove that, and that's how I'm able to repair them. |
but why don't I ever get a good working set from you, why oh why?
didn't you check them out? I feel like it's a year ago, we had the same problems.
why can't you deliver a good working set without problems for a change?
my first impressions were good, sharpness good, but you keep forgetting that I informed you
about the problems after we tried to dial in , couldn't do it , sent them over for repairs , had to wait a long time for you to do it, and get back this.
This is not customer service I expect.
don't you think that's unfair to your customer having to send boards back and forth over and over and over,
promising getting an even better performance the greatest that ever was and then failing on all
the problems.
did you check your work? and if yes, how did you do it? |
Remember your boards were tested for days to make sure they were right. Not sure what happened when you got them back, or why I show nothing indicating you were having a problem with them. We talked about lenses and me shipping you a set, but no mention of the boards and their problem. I have nothing for months not indicating to me a problem existed.
Anyway, my decision to to stop doing them has a lot to do with problems like this. For a period i was also having problems with my hands as was the case with another medical problem I was having. I just burnt out but failed to throw the towel in.
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racerxnet
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 362
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I would also like to keep on the table an open option to correct what you purchased from me, because I can't fill in the blanks of a long period of not hearing or knowing what was the status of those boards. And also know your being pleased with the stock boards, would be because you are used to them. |
Carrot and stick approach to keep you coming back. Long period because he takes so damn long to complete something, he forgets what’s going on. I admire his quick action on collecting someone’s money though.  Nidi, take the boards untouched and Moome card and move on as quickly as possible. Don’t shed one more cent on MP’s mods.
MAK
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