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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:51 am Post subject: |
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Wired does not work either so must be something else. Two IR receiver have been used also and made no change but I appreciate any help from you all. I don't have a 9500 Ultra I remember but a 2005 8518 that I used before so that is what I will set it back to. I don't think I ever changed the vertical motherboard though as they they had the same numbers but not sure. They rarely fail I've heard. So damn hard to remove.. We'll see when I get get to it. Thanks.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | it is a very finicky set that appears that most of maybe quite a few of the boards are not backwards compatible. Or maybe it would require only boards of it's version.
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I suspect that it only works with boards of it's version. It seems the Electrohome Marquees were more generic while the VDC examples were custom tailored to specific applications. IIRC, the Electrohome CLM firmware stopped around 4.4 and VDC continued producing multiple updates to tailor to simulator requirements.
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Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| thewolfman wrote: | | Wired does not work either so must be something else. Two IR receiver have been used also and made no change but I appreciate any help from you all. I don't have a 9500 Ultra I remember but a 2005 8518 that I used before so that is what I will set it back to. I don't think I ever changed the vertical motherboard though as they they had the same numbers but not sure. They rarely fail I've heard. So damn hard to remove.. We'll see when I get get to it. Thanks. |
I was responding to Redfox saying the problem was solved using the right remote. The procedure I posted should make any later model Marquee remote work.
If the wired also has the problem, it is with doubt circuit related. Have you tried another CLM, of an Electrohome version in this set and what happened?
The IR sensor on these remotes were designed with a higher sensitivity than average, and so was the remote designed for more output than average. And that's also why it has two (2) IR diodes and uses four batteries (as most commercial units do). The reason for this is in most setups the projector would be mounted behind a mirror, and could have to work bouncing off of more than one rear mirror. And in likewise could be mounted very high in the ceiling, so the goal was to make sure the remotes would work in this complex installations.
The problem with the technical design using a high sensitivity IR Receiver, was it's ability to pick up trash data. This data sometimes came from an electrical device also in the room, or would even be coming from a distant Microwave Terminal, if/when the install was on a high enough floor in or near the direct path of the microwave transmitted dish. These interference did not turn on or off the projector or cause any other function to work. It just shut down the remote operation. We have found in the field that some of those microwaves would be transmitting 24 hours, while others would turn on certain times of the day or randomly. When this interference became a problem. The remote would just not work. And that is also why the IR Receiver is so enclosed (encapsulated in shielding) as to prevent interference from disabling the operation of the projector.
Now, the above concerns IR operation, but your problem is direct data transfer. And it's pretty much the same on the PC board in that enclosed and highly populated computing environment (CLM). Where the trash (noise) can be very high and can easily get into the Remote system.
I had the same problem, but don't remember how I solved it...anyway, this is my theory on this, and of course, experience..
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | it is a very finicky set that appears that most of maybe quite a few of the boards are not backwards compatible. Or maybe it would require only boards of it's version.
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I suspect that it only works with boards of it's version. It seems the Electrohome Marquees were more generic while the VDC examples were custom tailored to specific applications. IIRC, the Electrohome CLM firmware stopped around 4.4 and VDC continued producing multiple updates to tailor to simulator requirements. |
Yeah, we're on the same page here on this. The Deflection Processor Board would definitely need to be replaced with an older version board, or at least replace U7 on it with a version not higher than 5.5
They should have designed these to make sure that were backwards compatible, because that is one of the things that made this projector so great. A sale could include a ton of boards for spares, and if a projector was replaced even with a later version, you stock would still work. Or you pull out your soldering iron and add, replace, remove a part or two.
We're going to have to figure this all out because these machines create a problem that repairs can be very costly, considering you'll not be able to swap in older or previous boards to keep it running properly.
Plus my nervous system is a little whacked these days, so doing a lot of troubleshooting and getting this right hand to behave is not something that happens everyday, to the degree of what would be required to really unravel the complexities they designed away from the original Swap and Play concept. There is some really weird stuff going on on this later CLM, that has me thinking, if they stayed with the plug-in-chip design, we can easily get things back to making the board compatible, opposed to the kazillion pin soldered in chips
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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I will make an effort to sort all boards out and try your inputs just not today Mike. I was reluctant top split up the boards to save on shipping from Redfox over having the entire chassis shipped out, I knew it wasn't going to work. One of those things things that just have to happen.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | ....the Electrohome CLM firmware stopped around 4.4 and VDC continued producing multiple updates to tailor to simulator requirements. |
That's about right for the firmware (U35). but most of these later compatibility problems has more to do with the other programmable chips, and on these later version boards, the chips cannot be removed and reprogrammed. Nor can replacement from earlier sets be installed. It's more like an "it is what it is" type of thing, and this cripples the projector from being backward compatible and being a classic Marquee.
The later firmware versions biggest change was when they added the "Ultra" features to the Marquee. That started with firmware version 4.0 or 4.1 if my memory is somewhat working today. The later versions, to include the few VDC added, would still make the set or board backwards compatible.
And why a need for the ongoing chip changes is beyond. Not sure if Tim has had one in his shop to play with, he would have been a better tester or QC than myself, or even Curt. Having seen the Ultra installed in Flight Simulators and other really odd-ball installations, where it really required a set that was capable of complex geometry and flexing, I see nothing in the menu of the 9518 I have here that really different. Not that I've pushed it to its limits. Just can't imagine why the other changes were necessary. And unlike what we had from Electrohome, there is nothing explaining what the differences would be.
If you really want to see something weird, copy your settings (using either Loader or Librarian) from the 9518 CLM into an earlier CLM and see what happens..
I really need to know if the mother board and back-plane PC board has also been changed.
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:53 am Post subject: |
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They have not. The backplane has never changed, and the upper motherboard didn't change after it was redesigned for the first Ultras.
I've seen and worked on Marquees in a simulator installation. The kind that burns the tubes in pentagonal patterns. (L3 Simusphere system)
Interestingly, in this installation, they don't use any of the enhanced geometry features at all. Starting from a full factory reset all that's done is centering, H and V size adjustment, and convergence.
The simulator includes grid alignment patterns which when brought up allow the projectors to be aligned and converged so that the grid test patterns are exactly aligned to the patterns that are actually printed on each rear projection screen. Those patterns are visible when the screen is illuminated with a UV light. So you turn on the UV light source and begin converging, green first, to the printed patterns. Very simple.
I spent three full weeks working on those simulators in that one installation in Japan. I think I could design and build the dome system
from memory!
Incidentally, there has been some inconsistency in how VDC made some Ultras, based on what I've seen. As I've been able to gather, what makes a 9518 "special" is simply that it has been slightly modified to allow the red and blue tubes to tilt inward at greater angles for short throw installations. The modification consists of punching out holes in the side shields to allow more swing range. The outer covers have matching cutouts and extra covers bonded to the outer surface.
But I've seen 9518 badged machines that did not have those mods.
I've also seen a machine badged as a 9540. I have no idea what was different about that one.
The only really different unit in the whole simulator setup was the one that handles the lower rear view. And on that one, the difference
was just that the lenses were installed with (roughly) 1/4" spacers to allow the unit to use more CRT surface area to reduce premature wear. This results in a smaller projected image than if the lenses are normally spaced.
Oddly enough, they could have just used extra C element clamping rings to accomplish the spacing change without having to design and source the custom spacers they used. The end results would have been the same.
I have multiple versions of Marquees in my own inventory including a couple "authentic" 9518s. I made note of the board revisions when I retubed them and that is how I can be sure that the UMB and backplane are the same versions found in any Ultra.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| cmjohnson wrote: | They have not. The backplane has never changed, and the upper motherboard didn't change after it was redesigned for the first Ultras.
I've seen and worked on Marquees in a simulator installation. The kind that burns the tubes in pentagonal patterns. (L3 Simusphere system)
Interestingly, in this installation, they don't use any of the enhanced geometry features at all. Starting from a full factory reset all that's done is centering, H and V size adjustment, and convergence.
The simulator includes grid alignment patterns which when brought up allow the projectors to be aligned and converged so that the grid test patterns are exactly aligned to the patterns that are actually printed on each rear projection screen. Those patterns are visible when the screen is illuminated with a UV light. So you turn on the UV light source and begin converging, green first, to the printed patterns. Very simple.
I spent three full weeks working on those simulators in that one installation in Japan. I think I could design and build the dome system
from memory!
Incidentally, there has been some inconsistency in how VDC made some Ultras, based on what I've seen. As I've been able to gather, what makes a 9518 "special" is simply that it has been slightly modified to allow the red and blue tubes to tilt inward at greater angles for short throw installations. The modification consists of punching out holes in the side shields to allow more swing range. The outer covers have matching cutouts and extra covers bonded to the outer surface.
But I've seen 9518 badged machines that did not have those mods.
I've also seen a machine badged as a 9540. I have no idea what was different about that one.
The only really different unit in the whole simulator setup was the one that handles the lower rear view. And on that one, the difference
was just that the lenses were installed with (roughly) 1/4" spacers to allow the unit to use more CRT surface area to reduce premature wear. This results in a smaller projected image than if the lenses are normally spaced.
Oddly enough, they could have just used extra C element clamping rings to accomplish the spacing change without having to design and source the custom spacers they used. The end results would have been the same.
I have multiple versions of Marquees in my own inventory including a couple "authentic" 9518s. I made note of the board revisions when I retubed them and that is how I can be sure that the UMB and backplane are the same versions found in any Ultra. |
This all makes sense to me as well, because of the many Simulator and other complex setups that I've serviced and maintained over the years, the Ultra was always sufficient. And where it wasn't there were unique mods, like board changes, like an added on board or parts changes, and I've seen a many. Or even some mechanical as you pointed out, that were figured out in the field. But nothing that could explain what is going on with the 9518 that would have them crate a very different and non compatible board sets. I may place a call into Scott to see if he can make sense out of this. I hate to think they redesigned the entire chassis around a particular project. Which seems to be the case.
Thanks for confirming the chassis boards.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | jbmeyer13 wrote: | | ....the Electrohome CLM firmware stopped around 4.4 and VDC continued producing multiple updates to tailor to simulator requirements. |
That's about right for the firmware (U35). but most of these later compatibility problems has more to do with the other programmable chips, and on these later version boards, the chips cannot be removed and reprogrammed. Nor can replacement from earlier sets be installed. It's more like an "it is what it is" type of thing, and this cripples the projector from being backward compatible and being a classic Marquee.
The later firmware versions biggest change was when they added the "Ultra" features to the Marquee. That started with firmware version 4.0 or 4.1 if my memory is somewhat working today. The later versions, to include the few VDC added, would still make the set or board backwards compatible.
And why a need for the ongoing chip changes is beyond. Not sure if Tim has had one in his shop to play with, he would have been a better tester or QC than myself, or even Curt. Having seen the Ultra installed in Flight Simulators and other really odd-ball installations, where it really required a set that was capable of complex geometry and flexing, I see nothing in the menu of the 9518 I have here that really different. Not that I've pushed it to its limits. Just can't imagine why the other changes were necessary. And unlike what we had from Electrohome, there is nothing explaining what the differences would be.
If you really want to see something weird, copy your settings (using either Loader or Librarian) from the 9518 CLM into an earlier CLM and see what happens..
I really need to know if the mother board and back-plane PC board has also been changed. |
I run a 9518 CLM in my Electrohome PJ for over a year and there's been no issues. I also tested a 9518 FGM and it worked as well so I'm no closer to an answer as to what has been causing you guys issues. 9518 boards work in older sets but not vice versa. My first thought was that it would be the mother board but Chris says there's been no changes to that design since late 90's introduction of Ultra chassis.
I seem to remember that you could download non-ultra CLM settings into an ultra CLM but can't download ultra CLM settings into a non-Ultra CLM.
There has to be something on motherboard or FGM/HDM 9518 modules which causes them to reject older CLM's.
_________________
Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| thewolfman wrote: | | I will make an effort to sort all boards out and try your inputs just not today Mike. I was reluctant top split up the boards to save on shipping from Redfox over having the entire chassis shipped out, I knew it wasn't going to work. One of those things things that just have to happen. |
Can you be more specific on what part of this relates to me. I'm not sure what's going on here?
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: |
I run a 9518 CLM in my Electrohome PJ for over a year and there's been no issues. |
Are you still using the version 5.6 chip @ U7 on the DPB on the CLM?
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | thewolfman wrote: | | I will make an effort to sort all boards out and try your inputs just not today Mike. I was reluctant top split up the boards to save on shipping from Redfox over having the entire chassis shipped out, I knew it wasn't going to work. One of those things things that just have to happen. |
Can you be more specific on what part of this relates to me. I'm not sure what's going on here? |
I was saying I feel a little jinxed and by removing boards to install them in my chassis would not solve the remote issue instead I got a pj that wont fire up at all. I should have bought the entire chassis from Redfox to be on the safe side but I went with boards +HVPS+LVPS only.
And now I must sort boards out as I have gotten quite a pile of them. 2x9518 1x8518 with several more issuse there as well. The HVPS from the 8518 was barley usable at the end of the connector cable, and last time it broke of into more bits (at the end) so now I can't snug the cable on at all. Aint that typical. So I must use the 9518 version with the rest of the 8518 boards and LVPS. It's a mess.
To top it all my second batch of 9518 boards was smashed in shipping so very likely that the LVPS+HVPS is no a go as the handles had to straighten out on arrival. If I had more money I would buy the last 9518 Redfox has and then the entire chassis so not jinx myself again but all tapped out at the moment.
I will at some point try to get up in the saddle and work with the pj again, can't tell when that will happen though.
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | jbmeyer13 wrote: |
I run a 9518 CLM in my Electrohome PJ for over a year and there's been no issues. |
Are you still using the version 5.6 chip @ U7 on the DPB on the CLM? |
yes
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Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| thewolfman wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | | thewolfman wrote: | | I will make an effort to sort all boards out and try your inputs just not today Mike. I was reluctant top split up the boards to save on shipping from Redfox over having the entire chassis shipped out, I knew it wasn't going to work. One of those things things that just have to happen. |
Can you be more specific on what part of this relates to me. I'm not sure what's going on here? |
I was saying I feel a little jinxed and by removing boards to install them in my chassis would not solve the remote issue instead I got a pj that wont fire up at all. I should have bought the entire chassis from Redfox to be on the safe side but I went with boards +HVPS+LVPS only.
And now I must sort boards out as I have gotten quite a pile of them. 2x9518 1x8518 with several more issuse there as well. The HVPS from the 8518 was barley usable at the end of the connector cable, and last time it broke of into more bits (at the end) so now I can't snug the cable on at all. Aint that typical. So I must use the 9518 version with the rest of the 8518 boards and LVPS. It's a mess.
To top it all my second batch of 9518 boards was smashed in shipping so very likely that the LVPS+HVPS is no a go as the handles had to straighten out on arrival. If I had more money I would buy the last 9518 Redfox has and then the entire chassis so not jinx myself again but all tapped out at the moment.
I will at some point try to get up in the saddle and work with the pj again, can't tell when that will happen though. |
At anytime in this process did you spill Beer on any of the PJ parts? 
_________________
Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | | jbmeyer13 wrote: |
I run a 9518 CLM in my Electrohome PJ for over a year and there's been no issues. |
Are you still using the version 5.6 chip @ U7 on the DPB on the CLM? |
yes |
The 5.6 was a real problem in this 9518 I have here. And that may confirm there's really something wacky about this chassis. And with it being on my ceiling, it's not a problem I would want to tackle myself these days.
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