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jeffslife
Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 4190
Location: ohio usa
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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I bought a G90 for a couple reasons but the number one reason was dependability. I use my PJ every day. I wanted one that didn't constantly need maintainance and attention. I adjust my zone about once a month, takes about ten minutes and I'm done.
I love my picture, it gives me pause to consider adjusting anything on it because Craig made it so beautiful. What I notice is that people don't say is when Craig sets it up its done. Done. If you do have an issue even a slight one Craig is right there johney on the spot to help. He REALLY looks out for his clients. I cant even begin to tell you how good he has treated me.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | There is a lot of different stuff to adress on the Marque, but knowing it a bit i think most will know what boards to use and what boards to leave.
There is some grounding who needs to be adressed, as it dont seems to be 2 Marquee grounded the same.
And then depending on build year the VIM is different, and ill say that the latest is the worse.
Also quite a lot around here have the PT22 green tube in, and that makes for a total messed up grayscale/ gamma.
*I think ill be able to make the Marquee performe more or less the same knowing what to look for. |
This is telltaling all on it's own. Nice post Kurt. 
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| mr_ro_co wrote: | I think there's a reason why back in the day Madrigal (the premium brand of Harman Intl.), who could have used any CRT, chose the Marquee. Same for Vidikron.
| Spanky Ham wrote: | | I think Madrigal and Vidikron sourced Marquees, because they could get them cheap first and foremost. I am not sure how much Sony would have come off of their $45k list for the G90. |
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Exactly. It likely had nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the projector and everything to do with availability as a rebranded solution and/or the price.
The reason OEM's often work with "white-labelers" is to sell into a market (or markets) they don't serve and/or don't want to serve. Most often, it's because they have no consumer brand awareness and no consumer dealer/reseller network.
Such was the case with both VDC and Barco. Zero consumer brand awareness, and zero consumer dealer network (think "showroom where a consumer can demo a product"). Both companies sold commercial solutions to a commercial market. Their customers were all corporate and government. It's difficult, expensive, and time-consuming to build brand awareness and establish a dealer network in a new market, so it made perfect sense for Barco and NEC to OEM projectors to Runco, and for VDC to OEM projectors to Madrigal and Vidikron. They weren't cannibalizing any of their own dealers' sales selling rebadged solutions because none of their dealers sold to the residential market.
On the contrary, Sony was a well-known consumer brand with a very well-established consumer dealer network. It wouldn't have made sense for them to OEM a very expensive, very high-margin projector to a competitor as it would have cannibalized their own sales.
Often the OEM pricing is such that it won't support rebranding. Barco is a good example. Guess why Runco projectors were so expensive? They bought at a quantity discount from Barco or NEC, but then they Runco had to make profit margin, a distributor may have made some margin, and the dealer had to make margin. That's why the products are often "premium" products compared with the OEM solution. It's the only way the math will work and have everybody make money.
Same with Wolf projectors now. They rebrand JVCs, everybody knows they rebrand JVCs, but it costs 50% more. Why is that? Because JVC doesn't discount the OEM projector much (if at all) compared to dealer-cost on a new JVC. Then, Wolf puts it in a nice metal case, nice packaging, does all their own consumer marketing and dealer support, and then has to make money on all that, as does the dealer. In return for paying a lot more, the end-customer gets a far superior overall experience buying a Wolf projector than they would buying one from JVC - and they should. It also works because the premium pricing of the Wolf projectors means (in general) that a Wolf dealer isn't competing for sales with a JVC dealer. They're selling to somewhat different customers.
Same with Barco back in the day. Anybody could have gone to the work to find a dealer and bought an NEC or Barco projector. If they would have talked to you at all, or you could have convinced them to sell to you, to say the support wouldn't have been consumer-friendly would have been an understatement. Enter Runco and Runco dealers. Say what you want about rebadging, and it certainly doesn't make sense for everybody, but there's a perfectly good justification for it.
It's actually not that different of a business model from what some of the auto manufacturers do with their premium brands today. Everybody knows a lot of Lexus models are based on very similar Toyota models. Same with Nissan and Infiniti, and same with Chevrolet and Cadillac. Often, performance is very similar, and much of what you pay extra for with the premium brands are nicer finishes and better service and support.
Cheers,
SC
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | mr_ro_co wrote: | I think there's a reason why back in the day Madrigal (the premium brand of Harman Intl.), who could have used any CRT, chose the Marquee. Same for Vidikron.
| Spanky Ham wrote: | | I think Madrigal and Vidikron sourced Marquees, because they could get them cheap first and foremost. I am not sure how much Sony would have come off of their $45k list for the G90. |
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Exactly. It likely had nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the projector and everything to do with availability as a rebranded solution and/or the price. |
Nothing whatsoever? That's complete hyperbolic nonsense. I know for a fact that the Marquee's performance figured very prominantly in Madrigal's consideration for it as their reference projector.
We don't know what Sony would have sold the G90 to to Madrigal for, but I'm sure Madrigal would have accommodated it in their MSRP accordingly if they'd selected it.
You worship David Wilson, right? At the 1999 CES I went to a private ballroom set up away from the main exhibitors with Wilson Audio for speakers and Madrigal for video and audio. They had an MP9 stack with some unobtainable high def front end and a huge screen with an image that made my jaw hit the floor. It was easily the best image I'd ever seen from a CRT projector.
What was the company that Nash's buddy Chris worked for? Some reference projector outfit, best of the best. What did they use? The Marquee. Why? Because it was cheaper than a G90?
Steve
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| mr_ro_co wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | | mr_ro_co wrote: | I think there's a reason why back in the day Madrigal (the premium brand of Harman Intl.), who could have used any CRT, chose the Marquee. Same for Vidikron.
| Spanky Ham wrote: | | I think Madrigal and Vidikron sourced Marquees, because they could get them cheap first and foremost. I am not sure how much Sony would have come off of their $45k list for the G90. |
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Exactly. It likely had nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the projector and everything to do with availability as a rebranded solution and/or the price. |
Nothing whatsoever? That's complete hyperbolic nonsense. I know for a fact that the Marquee's performance figured very prominantly in Madrigal's consideration for it as their reference projector.
We don't know what Sony would have sold the G90 to to Madrigal for, but I'm sure Madrigal would have accommodated it in their MSRP accordingly if they'd selected it.
You worship David Wilson, right? At the 1999 CES I went to a private ballroom set up away from the main exhibitors with Wilson Audio for speakers and Madrigal for video and audio. They had an MP9 stack with some unobtainable high def front end and a huge screen with an image that made my jaw hit the floor. It was easily the best image I'd ever seen from a CRT projector.
What was the company that Nash's buddy Chris worked for? Some reference projector outfit, best of the best. What did they use? The Marquee. Why? Because it was cheaper than a G90?
Steve |
I also can't believe , as Justin, find myself agreeing with Steve here.
Chris and the companies he did work for, Vidikron, Accurate Imaging and Reference Imaging choose the Marquee due to its modular design and, most importantly it had the most accessible bandwidth of any other PJ at the time. One other factor was it was never meant for Home use and the commercial customers did not care much about image but more on its MTBF. So some parts were great for reliability but not so good for video, noise etc.
This is where Chris and others pulled more out of it than Electrohome, Christie or VDC cared to.
He has told me before he has swept the video path right to the cathode at way over the stated 300mhz of "usable" bandwidth. he claimed 600mhz, not sure how much truth to that there is but non the less it still can go high as MP has shown in 1:1 shots.
600mhz may not have resolve it fully but it was still able to use that if it needed to from what he told me.
But Steve C also has a point about Sony, I do not think they would have allowed any company to re brand any of their products no matter what.
Athanasios
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| mr_ro_co wrote: | | Nothing whatsoever? That's complete hyperbolic nonsense. I know for a fact that the Marquee's performance figured very prominantly in Madrigal's consideration for it as their reference projector. |
You accusing me of hyperbole, Steve? That's rich. You invoke hyperbole like a master violinist plays a Stradivarius.
Yes, "nothing" was inaccurate. Jesus, it's like you sit there and read every one of my posts just looking to find the slightest inaccuracy so you can wax lyrical about my "hyperbolic nonsense". I should have simply stated that availability and price had as much to do with quality for what they chose to sell.
Speaking of hyperbole - I don't worship David Wilson. That's not possible since I didn't even know the name until you posted it. I don't brag about "knowing" people in industry just because I had a chat at a party or even hung out with them in a booth or demo room. I simply went to the Wilson room and heard a great demo - one of the best I've ever heard. Who gives a sh*t? It's just my opinion. As for Nash's buddy Chris, I have no idea who that is, and I have no idea what reference projector outfit to which you refer, nor do I care.
As for Wilson's choice of display system, those selections also aren't just made based on what's most awesome. More often, it's a matter of who and what's available, what they'll chip in, and what they want in return. No doubt Madrigal saw a good fit as far as the customers in the Wilson room, no doubt similar to the Display Development fit in the room I saw and heard. That said, I have no doubt the Madrigal stack was a sight to behold in 1999.
SC
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | Steve was it this show?
 |
Focal (JM Labs), Halcro and a Vidikron stack. That's some nice gear!
No, I'm pretty sure it was during the 1999 or 2000 CES in Vegas. IIRC, it was a joint room between Wilson Audio and Madrigal. It was not in the main high end audio exhibit hotel - it was at some other hotel across town in a large ballroom. It probably wasn't even part of the CES at all. Some very high end guys do their own thing at CES on the periphery without being CES exhibitors.
Steve
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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Why not do a shootout.. G90 VS Marquee. we just need to define what Marquee, as there is so many different models. They have been made with both LCP and LUG tubes. In 1996 they had the 03VIM who have a much better low level performance.
Then it has come with a lot of different lens types.
If Craig accept the challenge, we could do both a standard G90 vs standard Marque 9500LC. And another part where modding and tweaking is open, and processors can be used if desired. Change lenses tubes C elements and whatever can be done today to bring up performance.
The idea to this challenge came after Craig shared his opinion about my skills and know how about CRT projectors.
The winner should run off with the losers projector video chain and whatever tools used for calibration and so on. And ill suggest a 5000$ deposit who will be payed out if one pull out of the competition.
That way Craig should feel comfortable not wasting his time. And be able one for all to prove his and the G90 superior position on the CRT market.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | Why not do a shootout.. G90 VS Marquee. we just need to define what Marquee, as there is so many different models. They have been made with both LCP and LUG tubes. In 1996 they had the 03VIM who have a much better low level performance.
Then it has come with a lot of different lens types.
If Craig accept the challenge, we could do both a standard G90 vs standard Marque 9500LC. And another part where modding and tweaking is open, and processors can be used if desired. Change lenses tubes C elements and whatever can be done today to bring up performance.
The idea to this challenge came after Craig shared his opinion about my skills and know how about CRT projectors.
The winner should run off with the losers projector video chain and whatever tools used for calibration and so on. And ill suggest a 5000$ deposit who will be payed out if one pull out of the competition.
That way Craig should feel comfortable not wasting his time. And be able one for all to prove his and the G90 superior position on the CRT market. |
This sounds like the Mike Parker vs. Hi-Rez shootout that never materialized over on AVS several years ago. Nash was giddy like a school girl to buy mods..LMAO
This will never happen..but it makes for a great laugh 
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | mr_ro_co wrote: | | Nothing whatsoever? That's complete hyperbolic nonsense. I know for a fact that the Marquee's performance figured very prominantly in Madrigal's consideration for it as their reference projector. |
You accusing me of hyperbole, Steve? That's rich. You invoke hyperbole like a master violinist plays a Stradivarius.
Yes, "nothing" was inaccurate. Jesus, it's like you sit there and read every one of my posts just looking to find the slightest inaccuracy so you can wax lyrical about my "hyperbolic nonsense". I should have simply stated that availability and price had as much to do with quality for what they chose to sell.
Speaking of hyperbole - I don't worship David Wilson. That's not possible since I didn't even know the name until you posted it. I don't brag about "knowing" people in industry just because I had a chat at a party or even hung out with them in a booth or demo room. I simply went to the Wilson room and heard a great demo - one of the best I've ever heard. Who gives a sh*t? It's just my opinion. As for Nash's buddy Chris, I have no idea who that is, and I have no idea what reference projector outfit to which you refer, nor do I care.
As for Wilson's choice of display system, those selections also aren't just made based on what's most awesome. More often, it's a matter of who and what's available, what they'll chip in, and what they want in return. No doubt Madrigal saw a good fit as far as the customers in the Wilson room, no doubt similar to the Display Development fit in the room I saw and heard. That said, I have no doubt the Madrigal stack was a sight to behold in 1999.
SC |
| ecrabb wrote: | | You invoke hyperbole like a master violinist plays a Stradivarius. |
Now THAT'S pure hyperbole! 
I honestly think you use it much more frequently than I do. What you do is often just dismiss any forcefully argued, strongly worded position or claim of mine (or from anyone) as hyperbole when you simply don't agree with it. It's your key dismissal term.
You've gushed about Wilson, Magico and similar gold plated turds (more hyperbole), so I just assumed you worshiped David Wilson as part of your admiration of that stuff.
Right there in Salt Lake City (Sugarhouse) is one of the most high end audio stores you'll find anywhere, Aurant (used to be called "Audition" back in the day, and it used to be across the street). I don't know about the past 15 years, but they used to carry the most expensive stuff on the planet and their premium video offering in the late 90s was Vidikron. They could have carried anything, but the Vision 1 is what they placed in all their mega dollar home theater installations. Their demo room had the V1 on a platform lift that came out of the ceiling, super cool.
Steve
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | Why not do a shootout.. G90 VS Marquee. we just need to define what Marquee, as there is so many different models. They have been made with both LCP and LUG tubes. In 1996 they had the 03VIM who have a much better low level performance.
Then it has come with a lot of different lens types.
If Craig accept the challenge, we could do both a standard G90 vs standard Marque 9500LC. And another part where modding and tweaking is open, and processors can be used if desired. Change lenses tubes C elements and whatever can be done today to bring up performance.
The idea to this challenge came after Craig shared his opinion about my skills and know how about CRT projectors.
The winner should run off with the losers projector video chain and whatever tools used for calibration and so on. And ill suggest a 5000$ deposit who will be payed out if one pull out of the competition.
That way Craig should feel comfortable not wasting his time. And be able one for all to prove his and the G90 superior position on the CRT market. |
This sounds like the Mike Parker vs. Hi-Rez shootout that never materialized over on AVS several years ago. Nash was giddy like a school girl to buy mods..LMAO
This will never happen..but it makes for a great laugh |
If Craig is not to female, i cant see why it should not happen..?
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | Found it I think |
Pretty sure it was Wilson X1s with an MP9 stack. It may have been a dealers exhibit, and like I said, probably not an acutal CES exhibitor. And if memory serves, it was 1999 or 2000.
Steve
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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The thing to remember about Vidikron is that they were a marketing company. James Wellnitz (CEO) was VERY good at setting up the distribution channels back in the day. That was an equally important factor in getting the Vidikron line (aside from performance) into all of those super high end shops and custom installers. The G90 came out in '97 or 98' and by that point Vidikron had entrenched itself in that market quite nicely.
Chris Stephens was the first guy to really mod the Marquee chassis; first for Ultimate Entertainment and then after the owner died Chris and a partner opened Reference Imaging. He did this initially to help Vidikron when Madrigal became a reseller. Vidikron never ended up marketing that design so Chris ended up doing the mods at Ultimate Entertainment. When Vidikron later folded Wellnitz started up Accurate Imaging and did all the same mods Chris was doing. At one point you had Accurate Imaging and Reference Imaging basically selling the same PJ. The modifications were mainly component (caps, cables, input card) based.
This (and not the G90) was considered the pinnacle of CRT back about 12-15 years ago. I'd say around the time that Accurate and Reference Imaging went belly up was when Mike really started getting into modding the VIM and VNB. This was all together different as Mike doesn't care for boutique caps and such, rather he went far deeper into exploring and adapting the video chain including op amp replacement, inductors, etc.
Wellnitz was the marketer, Stephens was the pioneer and Mike has taken it to a whole other level.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Time to go fire up my Ampro and enjoy some trouble free and mesmerizing video. Glad I can enjoy a flick without having to fiddle with it every 10 minutes. 
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | Actually Justin, Chris did have his hands on a Vidikron branded machine. It was the Vision One- X. All wet tantalums and the Aja SDI card with a Tarranex VP if I'm not mistaken.
Athanasios |
The vision one - x was chris's design. It included all the wet tants, silver cable, etc. as a response to the MP9. Vidikron never released that pj. Chris would just mod and resell the same pj when he was at ultimate entertainment. I think he bought them from vidikron to get the case.
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