CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:16 pm Post subject: Pioneer is out of consumer audio!

Kinda sad, but predictable.

http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Pioneer-s-exit-from-stereo-components-marks-end-of-era

HogPilot · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:51 pm Post subject:

Perfect timing - same day as I ordered a Pioneer Elite SC-85 to replace my old SC-07 to play nice with my new Vizio 4K LED TV.

Jeremy112 · Joined: 28 Sep 2006 Posts: 2649 Location: Fond du Lac, WI

And they are hoping car audio will save them... What a shame, once a company that actually meant what it's name stood for, now struggling for air in the middle of an ocean.

This doesn't surprise me sadly, ever since 2006 I have been watching Pioneer slowly cheapen up their home audio equipment. It has gotten cheaper and cheaper, hell, does anyone even notice their Pioneer Elite looks like anything special?... Compared to the "elite" equipment they made 10 years ago, I would have to say their new equipment looks no better than anyone elses.

I can't really say anything about the "high" end pioneer stuff, but I have come across many of the current lower to mid end Pioneers. The most concerning thing to me is when you can take the guts of a Pioneer and literally drop them into a Marantz chassis like the Pioneer guts were made for it. I have seen and done this a few times, which tells me that quality has tanked in both companies.

Has anyone noticed how Denon redid their entire website? And how their complete line-up of equipment is paltry compared to a year ago?

Anyway... I only need 3 more Pioneer pieces to complete my Pioneer collection: a BDP-09FD blu ray, SC-09TX AVR (Its huge, and their last true flagship receiver,) and last but not least a Pioneer PL-L1 turntable. My only fear now is that the price may increase since getting any "good" new Pioneer equipment is very unlikely, and some I am sure will choose to go ape on collecting.

What a bummer man!

ecrabb · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:17 pm Post subject:

I assume when they say "car audio", they're referring to OEM business, like Bose, JBL, Infinity, etc. have done, not the 12v market in general (which is a shadow of its former self). Lord knows the audio manufacturers are pretty incapable of doing it themselves. I never understood why the auto manufacturers didn't just make a few strategic hires from the audio industry and for $50/car significantly enhance the quality of the OEM offering. But, whatever.

It isn't just Pioneer or Marantz that got cheaper. Everything's gotten cheaper. A LOT cheaper. A pretty nice stereo receiver back in the mid-70's was $350. A pretty nice AVR now is $750, but that $750 now is like $175 back in the 70's. Same with TVs; think about how much a good 32-inch set like a Sony XBR was back in 1985. Over a thousand dollars. Now, you can buy a 50-inch set for half that price!

I don't know about anybody else, but I just haven't been that impressed with Pioneer for the last 10 or 15 years. More lately, the Onkyo line offered way more bang for the buck. Denon, too. And yeah - not only cheap, but cheap looking and feeling. Too plastic-y. Even the Elite stuff just didn't have the right feel to me - nothing like the older stuff or mid-range newer stuff like Integra.

Denon had to simplify their website. They had old and new models both on the site at the same time. It looks like they nuked all the older models. I sure don't like the look and feel of the new site, though. It's all "HEOS-ified". Too much orange. Chasing after Sonos, I guess - but, lord… Lotsa orange.

These times, they are a-changin'.

SC

paw · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 1176 Location: Arvada, CO

So they don't make TVs, now no audio. I heard they are selling their DJ division. What do they have left?

ecrabb · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:57 am Post subject:

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:57 am Post subject:

What`s left? Why, buy all your AV needs at a quality store (with a kaptial K).. WALMART of course!

Sadly, the local discount place where I bought literally 100s of universal remotes from locally got out of selling remotes. Anyone that ever bought a CRT off me back in the day with a universal remote came from this place. So I had to go to WalMart, as I had a couple of Samsung flat screens to sell. Twice the price at Wallyworld for the same remote. Luckily I found them cheaper on eBay, so I ordered 6, but had to buy 3 at WalMart. I cringed.

Jeremy112 · Joined: 28 Sep 2006 Posts: 2649 Location: Fond du Lac, WI

No wonder Pioneer went to hell, here's a clip from the company history page on Pioneers website:

"With seven percent of revenues invested back into R&D, we continue to develop imaginative products that best fit the lifestyle of the new century."

a huge 7%!

ecrabb · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:58 pm Post subject:

Um… 7% of revenue for a CE company the size of Pioneer is a HUGE number. Last year, they eked out profit of just over a billion dollars after a couple of years of big losses. That $1B profit was on almost $80B in revenues. 7% of $80B is more than $5B, which is a LOT of R&D.

When things were great in consumer electronics, their gross profit margin was probably only 15 or 20 percent, so 7% on R&D is a pretty healthy expenditure.

SC

Mr. Green · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:01 pm Post subject:

I've always bought Pioneer receivers and been fairly happy with them (only exception being handshake issue). Is there any company that makes good stuff that's still reasonably priced (say $750-$1250)? I think I paid $700 for this last one in 2007. I doubt I'll be replacing soon but with Pioneer out; I'll need to start thinking about who would be next.

Jeremy112 · Joined: 28 Sep 2006 Posts: 2649 Location: Fond du Lac, WI

Mr. G You could always try Onkyo which the pioneer line will be under anyway. I've read a lot of good things about them, same with integra.

I WAS a Pioneer guy myself, then a Denon guy. Now with both slimming things down, I don't know what I'll replace my equipment with.

Maybe ill save up and buy McIntosh for the HT lol

SC, I suppose that makes sense then. Still, if they doubled that, imagine what they could have R&D'd Very Happy

ecrabb · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:16 pm Post subject:

I like Onkyo-Integra myself. I like the value they offer for the money, which tends to be pretty trend-setting. They did have a design problem that caused some early HDMI board failures in some models, but they generally took care of their customers, so unless you bought used or were way outside your warranty period, you were OK.

The Integra line is Onkyo's step-up integrator line just for the CEDIA channel. It's generally similar guts to coincident Onkyo models, but often with better power supply, bigger transformer, chassis upgrade, a little more elegant design with metal volume knob, and RS-232 for control. Resellers can't advertise or sell on line. That sort of thing.

I bought my Integra DHC-9.9 before I worked in the industry. I've had it for probably 4-5 years now, and it's been a really good prepro. Even with access to awesome pricing, there's still not another preamp I'd rather have. I really, really like the Marantz prepros, but it would still be my second choice after the Integra because it's higher-priced with fewer features I want. It is really, really nice-looking though if you're into that look.

SC

Mr. Green · Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:41 am Post subject:

Cool thanks for the replies. Never had the money to go into a dedicated home theater store, so other than what the best buys and such had, I never really knew what else is out there.

km987654 · Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:56 am Post subject:

Bang for buck view is part of the problem that usually means features for dollars when quality for dollars is what is needed from buyers. We have created the problem in our buying habits.

ecrabb · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:41 am Post subject:

HogPilot · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:26 pm Post subject:

+1!

km987654 · Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:19 am Post subject:

People are either buying features or quality at a particular price point. As you have stated you like bang for buck and I take that as features for dollar spent. If that's wrong correct me. It not possible to get all the features and the quality at the same price as any one of these even though the ability of manufacturers to make better products at lower prices has improved it hasn't gone far enough to get both. People will generally take features over quality as it's easy to see a feature and more difficult to see quality. This is a totally relevant position and it comes down to marketing.

ecrabb · Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:08 pm Post subject:

km987654 · Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:35 pm Post subject:

Well said. I agree with the spectrum of features and quality. I guess I am simply taking the extreme position on each axis to demonstrate a point but you pretty much have it right as far as I am concerned even down to the point of paying some extra for quality but not too much.

the big E · Joined: 20 Apr 2013 Posts: 1928 Location: speedwell Tn.

I have a car amp that's pioneer(hope it holds up over the years)

Speaking of home gear I have a (I guess) vintage set of pioneer three way speakers that was my main speakers before I got my infinities they would rattle everything in the house
I powered them with a Nikki 60wpc reciver (it was a 80's model I think) and it died a few years back(now a h/k with more watts took its place)

I noticed over the years they're qulity went down

Most oem audio gear makers couldn't make speakers worth a crap(eg bose) compared to some(80's era chrysler infinity speakers with the emit tweeters) but now it's cheap cheap cheap as companies want a low cost to operate while maximizeing profit in the end quality has taken a backseat to quantity and features now