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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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So if port 5 is the best port on the 909, why is all testing not done on that one? It dont make sense to compare different dacs on different input ports with different performance.
So ill think its a good idea to post resolution, input port, and peaking setting to each screen shot.
I noticed that the 2 different pics Case posted, had very different sharpness to them, i have to agree that the port 5 pic from the PC source is the best Barco 1:1 i have seen, would be fun to lower the pixel clock untill its fully resolved, and see what bandwidth it will do.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | would be fun to lower the pixel clock untill its fully resolved, and see what bandwidth it will do. |
What do you mean, "lower the pixel clock until its fully resolved"? How exactly do you ascertain when the signal is, or is not, "fully resolved"?
SC
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: | | But I am going to fast. we should wait if Casey finds the time to test port 3. It would give a lot of information if I am right. |
I havent put the PC into Port 3 because ive got 5 RG6 cables taking RGB there, the MOOME i tried on both and noticed no real difference, the V3 box is sitting right at the projector for the shortest possible RGB run.
I havent got a 15pin cable long enough and the computer case in an Antec Twelve Hundred, too damn heavy to move it closer.
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Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | would be fun to lower the pixel clock untill its fully resolved, and see what bandwidth it will do. |
What do you mean, "lower the pixel clock until its fully resolved"? How exactly do you ascertain when the signal is, or is not, "fully resolved"?
SC |
Im not sure either, this is not perfect when you compare the H and V lines, but it is alot better, and it is a bit sharper too.
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Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | would be fun to lower the pixel clock untill its fully resolved, and see what bandwidth it will do. |
What do you mean, "lower the pixel clock until its fully resolved"? How exactly do you ascertain when the signal is, or is not, "fully resolved"?
SC |
When the level of the vertical match the horizontal on all 3 colors, and it holds up from Black to White, you have the ability to hit the right level and color at all resolutions, that have a great impact on the image quality, and how you experience it when watching a movie.
Lower the pixel clock is simple, just try run 1080P 50 Hz, or go to 720P 60, or 50hz, just like redfox has shown in anotyher thread.
The reason to look all 3 colors in the end is, that normaly the peaking in the video chain is the same on all 3 colors, but they are driven differently, so depending the amount of peaking, you might have very different results on different colors.
What i was curious about is how this RGB behaves with the PC solution, at what pixel clock it will be able to fully resolve the signal.
Its that simple.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | would be fun to lower the pixel clock untill its fully resolved, and see what bandwidth it will do. |
What do you mean, "lower the pixel clock until its fully resolved"? How exactly do you ascertain when the signal is, or is not, "fully resolved"? |
When the level of the vertical match the horizontal on all 3 colors, and it holds up from Black to White, you have the ability to hit the right level and color at all resolutions, that have a great impact on the image quality, and how you experience it when watching a movie. |
I did, and do, understand the overall concept. The point of my inquiry was to find out whether you're using an instrument to measure the on/pattern, or whether you're just eyeballing it. Without measuring the levels, calculating MTF, and defining what "fully resolved" means in terms of MTF, you can't truly ascertain when "it's fully resolved". By eyeballing it, what you're really deciding, subjectively so, is when the vertical on/off pattern looks to you like the horizontal on/off pattern. That's hardly scientific, and certainly isn't going to tell you when something is "fully resolved".
SC
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:25 am Post subject: |
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I also have a question. Casey do you think the new geforce is better than the 9800 bandwidth wise?
Another point is you proof that 7 m coax is not a problem to the bandwidth.
I remember from the 9800 that the color temp of the white was matching to the 80% white vertical. This might be because red is a little worse than it might be at 90% of white.
Very very good.
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Last edited by redfox001 on Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:06 am Post subject: |
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I was referring to this picture:
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:31 am Post subject: |
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Id have to say i think it is better, it will go to a higher analog resolution, but i havent tried any of this with the 9800GT i have here, its in my 3D machine though so i might be able to test later in the week. Its hard to deny the fact that the RGB output straight from the PC is yielding me clearly better results, but again and ive said simular things in the past, i dont feel the image looks any better from the lounge chair when i watch a movie on it, even if it is clearly better on test patterns.
On my machine the blue tube has issues, it has some slight internal damage that probably occured during shipping of the projector to me, and it wont go fully black without turning the gain way down. To get good greys i have the blue set at 26 gain and 12 cutoff. The red tube is not quite as sharp as the green, but it shows a simular result via RGB.
I leave peaking turned off, which seems to make the vertical lines very slightly darker, but turning it on seems to slightly affect sharpness.
I would like to see Fransisco do some testing between the RGB and the new internal MOOME on his modded 909 too.
When i tried all this on my XG to compare the different HDMI converters i was using a GTX650 Ti, i found the internal MOOME to be about the same as RGB, and the external MOOME V3 to be only slightly better than the HD Fury 3, but for that i was not running stock 1920x1080p timings because the XG has issues with that and it causes major streaking.
Although the CineMAX was clearly a bit sharper, the XG using both RGB and internal MOOME V2 did have the H and V levels pretty near bang on. I think Gábor proved a simular thing via RGB with his 6PG XTRA.
I would be interested to see this done on a well set up G70 to see how it compares to the XG and Crabb might be able to comment further on that, when i set up Aussie_Al's G70 is seemed to have no issues with the stock 1080p timings, it all went quite well, but i didnt feel the sharpness was good enough at 1080p though either, but i reckon it would still smoke a Cine 8 ONYX when set up right.
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Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: | I was referring to this picture:
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You can see there the blue is overly bright on the verticals, is that the image of mine from ages ago?
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Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:38 am Post subject: |
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Yep you will never get rid of it 
Yes blue might be over shooting. If you find some time please check. The picture makes the point by ecrabb very clear that eyeballing is not very accurate. At least not when using three colors.
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Last edited by redfox001 on Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | would be fun to lower the pixel clock untill its fully resolved, and see what bandwidth it will do. |
What do you mean, "lower the pixel clock until its fully resolved"? How exactly do you ascertain when the signal is, or is not, "fully resolved"? |
When the level of the vertical match the horizontal on all 3 colors, and it holds up from Black to White, you have the ability to hit the right level and color at all resolutions, that have a great impact on the image quality, and how you experience it when watching a movie. |
I did, and do, understand the overall concept. The point of my inquiry was to find out whether you're using an instrument to measure the on/pattern, or whether you're just eyeballing it. Without measuring the levels, calculating MTF, and defining what "fully resolved" means in terms of MTF, you can't truly ascertain when "it's fully resolved". By eyeballing it, what you're really deciding, subjectively so, is when the vertical on/off pattern looks to you like the horizontal on/off pattern. That's hardly scientific, and certainly isn't going to tell you when something is "fully resolved".
SC |
Yes eyeballing is the way, as no one have all the instruments, so to have a dialog on a forum like this we need to use the best options in hand.
And i think you will be surpriced how much you can see looking into the lenses if you step back to the screen finding the area you like to study.
Fully resolved is maybe not the right Word to use with CRT as this will never be possible, so lets just call it CRT reference level.
Also remember when looking at the end result on screen, you have the total outcome from 3 colors, and a hole lot of info that will be hard to meassure, as when you measure you will need to focus at 1 parameter.
The reason i ask a lot about how it behaves from Black to White running the 1:1 is that its not possible to evaluate bandwidth just using a full on off pattern, specially when there is to much peaking in play.
I posted some shots ilustrating how my G90 will look more right with a lower bandwidth moome Card, i even had it make a perfect 1:1 when playing with filtering, just that it lost all vertical output at low level.
So if all the above paremeters look good eyeballing them, you are running pretty smooth bandwidth/peaking wise.
Last edited by stridsvognen on Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Off topic but do you know if a pcie 2.0 would work in a pcie 1.0 slot? They are both saying x16 and seem the same size.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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He I got a geforce gtx750ti see if I can get it to work in my old Antec silent case with Phantm power. I have to upgrade the motherboard if it works. Now if I install something I have to wait a few hours till the 1GB memory has everything in place \
Hope I can reproduce these findings Casey!
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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I think it will work, ive never tried it, if it does itll run at reduced capacity.
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Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | I think it will work, ive never tried it, if it does itll run at reduced capacity. |
Yes the card runs fine in the machine. I can't get the Barco to vertical sync. One time I had it syncing using a t-connector and composite than again it refused. I think it is all in very proper cabling.
Do you use a short vga breakout and rg6 from there?
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Now I got a vertical shifted image with a very short vga cable so i could just display the Nokia one on one. And it is bad 
How is this possible? I have a 30 cm VGA cable (capacitance 83pF)
1080p@60 on port 5 from a Geforce 750ti.
One tip for the Marquee owners. I could not get a sync on the Marquee too but using a very short vga it worked fine. A little better resolution but still bad.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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You know I am thinking about this cable. At 100MHz the 83 pF makes 20 Ohm!
So the highest frequencies are shorted by 20 Ohm. At 10 MHz is is 191 Ohm.
Might all be in the cables....as Casey knows how to professional make cables.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: | You know I am thinking about this cable. At 100MHz the 83 pF makes 20 Ohm!
So the highest frequencies are shorted by 20 Ohm. At 10 MHz is is 191 Ohm.
Might all be in the cables....as Casey knows how to professional make cables. |
Please note, that the cable has inductance too, the inductance and capacitance will cancel each other if everything is right, and the two will determine the characteristic impedance of the cable, which should match to the feed and termination resistors. this is a transmission line.
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projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | redfox001 wrote: | You know I am thinking about this cable. At 100MHz the 83 pF makes 20 Ohm!
So the highest frequencies are shorted by 20 Ohm. At 10 MHz is is 191 Ohm.
Might all be in the cables....as Casey knows how to professional make cables. |
Please note, that the cable has inductance too, the inductance and capacitance will cancel each other if everything is right, and the two will determine the characteristic impedance of the cable, which should match to the feed and termination resistors. this is a transmission line. |
Yes but a short cable acts only as a capacitance. A cable becomes a transmission line when the length is more than 20 times the wavelength according something I red on wiki. When it is a transmission line the energie is stored in the cap and than goes to the inductance making a frequency independent wave. For short cables everyon allways calculates with the capacitance only and than it is a low pass filter. Correct? For short cables the inductance is very small.
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