|
As this forum is rarely used anymore, we've locked it. Feel free to browse and read. Questions? Please reach out to us directly. Cheers! |
|
 |
|
|
| Author |
Message |
stridsvognen
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| gjaky wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | You guys are all to funny. One of you brainiacs should actually look at what is actually being done on MP's boards. I think a big surprise would be shown, lol. |
This isn't a bad idea afterall  Since Mike isn't even replying to mails lately, it would be bad to loose all the improvements he done... one should reverse engineer all that stuff.
Seriously what I gathered from Mike's work so far is he removes filters where there were, and puts filters where there weren't.  |
Im not sure it would be easy, as i think Mike put a lot of hours into these machines to find out where to do what, there is the bandwidth performance, the noise filtering, and all the black pedestal setting/ restoration.
And ill guess that some parts are matched / trimmed to the individual card, so you will need to know what to look for, and where to trim it.
On top of that, which one of the boards Mike has done will you use as reference, it will be hard if not impossible to find 2 who is identical. There is different levels of performance mods, from different periodes, and its like he is still improving, so the next one will be different to.
I know some of whats going on on the boards, as i have been adjusting stuff for improved matching to my projector, but ill not share as its not my work to share, Mike has trusted me with some information, and my boards is not sealed, so i can work on them. I leave feedback to mike if i find a issue, and he have always had a open mind.
I think he have been sick for some long periodes, and also have a job and other stuff to take care off, i guess the modding is a hobby, and it will be treate like that, so some patience is needet, i doubt that he end up with money in his pockets from selling these mods.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| macgyver655 wrote: | | You guys are all to funny. One of you brainiacs should actually look at what is actually being done on MP's boards. I think a big surprise would be shown, lol. |
He I started this thread because I certainly believe this is true so I am hoping to get these boards. I am just trying to understand what the master with his non filtering technique has achieved and that is not little. On the other side I see what flattening the bandwidth on the barco does. I changed all three chips in the video driver with mp chips probable 5166 and yesterday again more backgroud detail rose. To be honest I think I have the max allready with a 1 Ghz video chain combined with a 180 mhz amplifier that has an incredible slew rate by the way. My opinion is that it does matter to flatten the bandwidth by extending it even if your last chip filters. To Gyaki sample and hold is a way of interpolating and digital filtering yust like upsampling. So I think the master has discovered that we need no analoque sharp filtering after the video dac. I do agree that would be the very best but one stage filtering in the end is not that bad with a little peaking it will get to 20 Mhz flat with the rest of the chaine 1 ghz. Estimating. But for 4 k I neeeeeeeeeed Mike Parker!!!! I loved watching yar head 2 yesterday best wishes.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
To make my point perfectly clear. It is max flatness that I am after to increase background detail. Therefore improving chips in between does matter even if you can't improve them all. It will not show in the testpicture as there is no higher frequency through the whole chain but it does show in movie material background detail. Of cause the best possible achievement lies with the Mp modified Marquee.
Btw might be that the input hdmi filtering is a very sharp filter cutting all bandwidth but leaving all flatness. I suspect teh end chip in the barco do the same because its high slew rate. Last point is wishfull thinking
Btw2 I think I am now on the Eisemann grounds. I see improvement but I can not show hard testpictures but on my defence I have no commercial interest 
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stridsvognen
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
Do you know how your DAC out is filtered, and its tested to hold its performance on screen on a reference display.?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| stridsvognen wrote: | | Do you know how your DAC out is filtered, and its tested to hold its performance on screen on a reference display.? |
No and I suspect mp and moome have done some incredible improvement there over the theory. I hope to get a modified hdmi once.
He on your point with dlp, don't know exactly where it was. You are probable right that they resolve a shitload of detail. But also there is the discussion on ansi versus on off contrast and in the beginning they said anso was more important but nowadays I read some say in a darkened room on off is more important. What is your opinion on this?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stridsvognen
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| redfox001 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Do you know how your DAC out is filtered, and its tested to hold its performance on screen on a reference display.? |
No and I suspect mp and moome have done some incredible improvement there over the theory. I hope to get a modified hdmi once.
He on your point with dlp, don't know exactly where it was. You are probable right that they resolve a shitload of detail. But also there is the discussion on ansi versus on off contrast and in the beginning they said anso was more important but nowadays I read some say in a darkened room on off is more important. What is your opinion on this? |
They are both important, you cant get a good image with bad ansi contrast, but you can have a nice image with bad on off as long you have good ansi and dont display dark scenes.
And the ansi contrast, maybe not in the measured standard, but from pixel to pixel is greatly improved on the MP mods, and some of it is noise related, the noise wash out the image, and another part is the bandwidth.
When i finish my projector ill have my tube face and C elements masked for improved ansicontrast, it makes a lot of difference to me that reflections in the chambers, and tube face not used is not in play.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wow even ansi is improved! Boy this gets better every day.
One thing on filtering if you guys allow me to speak up.
I think that a dlp does the dac convertion in the dlp chip so there is no filtering done before. A simpel dlp will do smaple and hold the light for some time. This kind of digital filtering is known to producs a frequency envellop that has -3db at the highest frequency and also produces alias images in the even higher frequencies but at low amplitude so probalbe not noticable else we would not be able to watch it at all.
But if you look at e-shift technology that is a way to do upsampling in between the pixels as I understand. That would be a digital filtering technique that has a much more linear frequency responce. Maybe that is why e-shift looks great together with the improved resolution it might produce more flatness and more detail.
So much for now. Think it through on CRT I might be wrong on all of this it just appears on my mind from somewhere.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="stridsvognen"][quote="redfox001"] | stridsvognen wrote: |
When i finish my projector ill have my tube face and C elements masked for improved ansicontrast, it makes a lot of difference to me that reflections in the chambers, and tube face not used is not in play. |
Yes I have to do that too. I did it with hd145 lenses and that looked better. I hope it will be better on lc too.
While we are at this there is another thing on my mind than I will leave everyone alone. I read that MP used a different kind of cooland
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/16-crt-projectors/1447203-got-my-marquee-fired-up-again.html
IceClear coolent. Any experience with this? Is it an improvement?
IceClearŪ AF is a non-toxic, non-glycol, biobased anti-freeze
| Quote: |
I agree, red is usually sharper. But I think I'm also seen a much sharper than usual red. And I'm sure its a result of this coolant. The stuff is very much clearer than the glycol. It's very close to plain water in comparison.
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stridsvognen
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| redfox001 wrote: | Wow even ansi is improved! Boy this gets better every day.
One thing on filtering if you guys allow me to speak up.
I think that a dlp does the dac convertion in the dlp chip so there is no filtering done before. A simpel dlp will do smaple and hold the light for some time. This kind of digital filtering is known to producs a frequency envellop that has -3db at the highest frequency and also produces alias images in the even higher frequencies but at low amplitude so probalbe not noticable else we would not be able to watch it at all.
But if you look at e-shift technology that is a way to do upsampling in between the pixels as I understand. That would be a digital filtering technique that has a much more linear frequency responce. Maybe that is why e-shift looks great together with the improved resolution it might produce more flatness and more detail.
So much for now. Think it through on CRT I might be wrong on all of this it just appears on my mind from somewhere. |
You have to find out if you want reference quality, as close as possible to the source material, or you want to manipulate the image to your taste.
Each tech has its strong and weak points, there is no perfect display tech that i know off.
If you for a moment concentrate about the end result on scren, and go look the best JVC the best SONY and the best DLP and so on you can find.
Then you can clearly see the difference in performance on different parameters, its helthy to have a reference for each parameter, if not you will just fumble around in blind, guessing whats good or not.
So forget about that old Barco, and see todays movie format on todays reference displays, and when your back home you will quite fast know if the Barco will ever be tweaked to compeate on just a few paramerters.
From this thread we know that you dont like Sharp edges, but thats about taste, and there im sure the Barco will fit in just right, no tweaking nedet.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
But I like background detail. Sharp enhancements I do not really need they make it look artificial but I can life with that because I am not anal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_retentiveness
I have to get back on dlp. They do have uniform bandwidth as they can do digital correction. My best guess is a dlp has a enormous resolution but it is not easy to see one in my environment so I trust on reviews but the on off is a problem.
http://dkc1.digikey.com/nl/en/tod/ADI/SINC-Envelope-Correction/SINC-Envelope-Correction.html
From the above link I learned that the video dac will output a correct bandwidth but there will be alias info if not analogue filtered. From the Mp mods I trust that this filtering is done in my brains or eyes. So I will now try to see if it is possible to remove the analogue filter from my internal hdmi solution. I know where the video chip is. If I can find the specs I might be able to remove som smd components and try.
To anyone trying this at home. Be carefull because these high frequencies can cause oscillations in feedback loops therby blowing a transistor or opamp.
Last edited by redfox001 on Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:05 am; edited 1 time in total
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stridsvognen
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
You cant read reviews and know how it look, you need to put your eyes to it, you need a visual reference, and from as many displays as possible.
And dont go think that the digital part is not messed up to, so lots of attention must be put into checking that the digital signal you feed your DAC is true to the source, every processor i have met do change the signal, some worse than others.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
Guys I have to admit a mistake in what I said about the testpattern one on one. That pattern should show perfectly white and black if the bandwidth is right. It is also true that it should not be a square wave because of the sampling theorem but the sine wave should show a some what smaller white and black stripe. I was incorrectly thinking it should sow the average. In fact a digital wil show a broader white pixel and that is a wrong enhancement. Our CRT should show the sinus and that is right with no enhancement. So I have to correct my statement that only 3 on 3 should be perfect white and black. I do think 3 on 3 should show the corner pixels a little broader white and black, a little more square. We are not seeing the max rise time in the one on one that should be seen in the lower frequancies. But we should note the max amplitude in the one on one. If it does not this means that the max amplitude is lowered by a number of db. The picture will lose sharpness and become softer. Thanks for the discussion.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| redfox001 wrote: | | Guys I have to admit a mistake in what I said about the testpattern one on one. That pattern should show perfectly white and black if the bandwidth is right. It is also true that it should not be a square wave because of the sampling theorem but the sine wave should show a some what smaller white and black stripe. I was incorrectly thinking it should sow the average. In fact a digital wil show a broader white pixel and that is a wrong enhancement. Our CRT should show the sinus and that is right with no enhancement. So I have to correct my statement that only 3 on 3 should be perfect white and black. I do think 3 on 3 should show the corner pixels a little broader white and black, a little more square. We are not seeing the max rise time in the one on one that should be seen in the lower frequancies. But we should note the max amplitude in the one on one. If it does not this means that the max amplitude is lowered by a number of db. The picture will lose sharpness and become softer. Thanks for the discussion. |
Glad to see that those countless posts wasn't for nothing. 
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stridsvognen
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| gjaky wrote: | | redfox001 wrote: | | Guys I have to admit a mistake in what I said about the testpattern one on one. That pattern should show perfectly white and black if the bandwidth is right. It is also true that it should not be a square wave because of the sampling theorem but the sine wave should show a some what smaller white and black stripe. I was incorrectly thinking it should sow the average. In fact a digital wil show a broader white pixel and that is a wrong enhancement. Our CRT should show the sinus and that is right with no enhancement. So I have to correct my statement that only 3 on 3 should be perfect white and black. I do think 3 on 3 should show the corner pixels a little broader white and black, a little more square. We are not seeing the max rise time in the one on one that should be seen in the lower frequancies. But we should note the max amplitude in the one on one. If it does not this means that the max amplitude is lowered by a number of db. The picture will lose sharpness and become softer. Thanks for the discussion. |
Glad to see that those countless posts wasn't for nothing. |
This is what a good forum is all about..
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| stridsvognen wrote: | | redfox001 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: |
I think there must be some compromises made running a split pack with long cable run.
I dont want to be negative here, it would truly be a fun project, but why bother with all these troubles not knowing if it will be a big wast of time.
Find a Marquee 9520 split pack, move the tubes, lenses and yokes if you like, go for a known working solution.
There was 5 sets of Marquee 9520LC on ebay some time back, who is born with LUG tubes, i bought some of the new LUG tubes he had for 200$ pr tube, complete tubes with housing and magnets. |
The cable might be a problem but I will start with a short one
I am searching for a 9520 split pack and I did bid on that set on ebay but still it was 2500$ plus shipping. What I have in mind now will cost me very little at first. The money will be spend on the MP mods. |
Ill recommend you to buy a cheep 9500LC ultra, complete machine with nice tubes, get the mods up running, and get a good feeling about the Marquee before you start inventing the deep plate and the hot water.
And as i wrote before there is a hole lot of work just finding the digital video chain and DAC part who will do a signal who is worthy of a well moddet Marquee.
So when you have a Marquee setup running a perfect 200Mhz 1080P 72hz signal, where you will be able to see pixel resolution looking at the tube face, and totaly noise free low level, and you still want more, its might worth to play with the LUG tubes and 909 yokes.
I also want to do 16:9 masking on the tubes to improve contrast, before i move to the tube/ yoke project.
Im curious when is a CRT tube to sharp, the scanlies have to much gap? Light up less tube face, needing more gain to produce the same light on screen burning the tubes faster.? |
I think this was a good advice after some thinking. I am going to buy a 9500 from Curt with a Vision one case and with the MP mods!!! 
Also lots of backup parts.
These are great times that one can have two top of the line CRT's to play with. My Cine max is doing fine now so I do not really need to invest in it at this time. Therefore I will invest in Marquee now and I allready understand that the possibilities are very good these days. I found the right moment to go back to CRT.
_________________
701s->runco933->8500ultra->cinemax->9500mp->919 splitpack + cinemax
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stridsvognen
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
Just for you to know, there is a hole lot of different MP mods out there, and some of them is sealed with some black stuff, making it impossible to work on, and the latest mods realy shine the brightest.. a lot has changed the last year or 2.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| stridsvognen wrote: | | Just for you to know, there is a hole lot of different MP mods out there, and some of them is sealed with some black stuff, making it impossible to work on, and the latest mods realy shine the brightest.. a lot has changed the last year or 2. |
Ok thanks I suspected that. I also have a contact with Mike to try and get the latest mods but I don't want to hurry that so I will play with the current mods first. But I hope that in the end I will get the latest mods!
_________________
701s->runco933->8500ultra->cinemax->9500mp->919 splitpack + cinemax
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Forum powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
|
|
