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JayAllan
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 175
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Spanky Ham wrote: | | As you said, I thought everything was shot in 4k, but I thought downrezzed (?) after that. Are they archiving everything at 4k? Unless it has changed recently, my best friend said that CGI/animation was done at 1080p. |
Exactly. 2k, actually… But, yes. Not 4k.
| JayAllan wrote: | | Almost ALL content is being produced in at least 4k. We are now shooting in 4k, and most every movie made since the 40s is in higher resolution (and can be scanned and downsampled) to 4k. Almost all feature films and TV shot on digital are shot it 4k or higher (the Red Epics are 5k) and film is natively higher than that. |
I'm not disputing that a lot of content is being acquired in 4k, Jay… Read what I wrote (emphasis added): "While there is content being acquired in 4k, it's not being produced or finished in 4k." I stand by that - most movies still aren't being produced in 4k.
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You are absolutely correct EC! That is very true. Our workflow is also usually 2k. The reality is the PC processor business is almost at a standstill as the focus is on mobile devices. PCs are not really fast enough for the huge dataflow without specialty hardware. As better compression comes in this will change.
The market is getting flooded with new cheap 4k cameras so the tide will turn and the 1080p tvs will get phased out. but it will take a while for sure.
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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:48 am Post subject: |
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4k is such a non starter....it's just not that big of a deal.
Contrast performance is still the key to a satisfying image.
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tschaeikaei
Joined: 08 Apr 2013
Posts: 490
Location: Germany/Saarland
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:49 am Post subject: |
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If you go to a local store, what do you see?
TV sets, dozens and hundreds of them. No projectors, maybe one or two DLPs.
Let's say 5 of these TV sets are 4k, look at the pricing of those.
The problem in my opinion is: Most people simply don't have the money for 4K devices.
And the standard size of a todays TV set is in the 40-50" range.
4K doesn't make sense in that size, the pixels (1920*1080) are small enough.
If you go bigger, 4k does make sense. But who could buy those monsters of 80" and bigger?
And yes, some who have the money and space for such a huge TV will think about the available material to watch.
There is nearly nothing. Search amazon.com for 4k blurays. Everything you get is mastered in 4k.
The movies filmed in 4k are Serengeti and Aquarium. I would not buy a 15k$ TV set to watch an aquarium all day.
Regards, Julian
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| tschaeikaei wrote: |
The movies filmed in 4k are Serengeti and Aquarium. I would not buy a 15k$ TV set to watch an aquarium all day.
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Hey, Time Scapes also available in 4K! 
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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4K only makes sense (as already mentioned) on bigger screens.
I watched tv on my screen for several years @720p in my living room. Was ok for me. Now it's time to switch to 1080p.
4K would be (maybe) the way to go in my dedicated home theater as the screen will be around 3m in width.
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Barco Cine 9 the one and only
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| ElTopo wrote: | | 4K only makes sense (as already mentioned) on bigger screens. |
I agree partially.
I think that should however read:
The resolution part of the 4K standard only makes sense (as already mentioned) on bigger screens. The wider gamut (colour range) that is also being adopted for the 4K standard will benefit all display sizes.
Kal
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RaWsHaRk
Joined: 01 May 2009
Posts: 131
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| tschaeikaei wrote: | If you go to a local store, what do you see?
TV sets, dozens and hundreds of them. No projectors, maybe one or two DLPs.
Let's say 5 of these TV sets are 4k, look at the pricing of those.
The problem in my opinion is: Most people simply don't have the money for 4K devices.
And the standard size of a todays TV set is in the 40-50" range.
4K doesn't make sense in that size, the pixels (1920*1080) are small enough.
If you go bigger, 4k does make sense. But who could buy those monsters of 80" and bigger?
And yes, some who have the money and space for such a huge TV will think about the available material to watch.
There is nearly nothing. Search amazon.com for 4k blurays. Everything you get is mastered in 4k.
The movies filmed in 4k are Serengeti and Aquarium. I would not buy a 15k$ TV set to watch an aquarium all day.
Regards, Julian |
here most ppl buy 55 inch or bigger. local shop has a 4K 65 incher at 1500 euros, its not really much more expensive than a 1080p at 65 inches here so why not buy a 4k? in a year or two there wont be other choices available, they will all be 4K because the tv manufacturers want us to buy them so production will be mostly them and cost will get lower every day.
its funny in a way because where i live i cant get a better than 576p aerial tv, no cable and only expensive satellite if i have to have hd... most of the stuff i watch is 720p, some movies at 1080p but there is nothing anywhere to see real 4k except some demo material on the net but my net is way too slow to download that ..and cant get faster even if I am ready to pay for it.
if 4k comes as slow as full hd here then I have already thrown away a couple 4k sets before i will have anything to watch in 4k...
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| ElTopo wrote: | 4K only makes sense (as already mentioned) on bigger screens.
I watched tv on my screen for several years @720p in my living room. Was ok for me. Now it's time to switch to 1080p.
4K would be (maybe) the way to go in my dedicated home theater as the screen will be around 3m in width. |
IIRC Joe Kane said in his testing that it took 80"s or larger to see a difference. I think it is more a matter of distance from screen. In an informal test at Cedia a couple of years ago, we found it was around one screen width to tell a just noticeable difference between 1080p and e-shift. It would be nice to get a 1080p and 4k pj and see where the distance is on upconverted material (as that is all that is really available now).
Personally I would prefer that increased color gamut and bit depth come before resolution. Having said that, the JVC 4k demo with native 4k material at Cedia was stunning. Probably the best image I have seen. Unfortunately, the upconverted BRs didn't really do much for me.
Jay,
When you get the 4k camera, you should definitely view your material on a 4k pj. You will be stunned by how good it looks. You might even want to invite Gary.  
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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I saw some FIFA soccer 4K material some days ago and there is definately a wow effect.
If movie material is available in 4K we're talking about 8K displays/projectors
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | IIRC Joe Kane said in his testing that it took 80"s or larger to see a difference. I think it is more a matter of distance from screen. |
I haven't heard the Joe Kane statement you're referring to, but a screen size number is worthless unless you also talk about a viewing distance. 80 inches at what viewing distance? Even on an 80-inch screen, you won't be able to see any difference if you're 30 feet away. But, at 6-8 feet like in a small living room, the difference is very much obvious on a 60- or 65-inch screen.
| Spanky Ham wrote: | | In an informal test at Cedia a couple of years ago, we found it was around one screen width to tell a just noticeable difference between 1080p and e-shift. It would be nice to get a 1080p and 4k pj and see where the distance is on upconverted material (as that is all that is really available now). |
IMHO, e-Shift isn't about upscaling or making 1080p material look better. To me, it's all about eliminating visible digital artifacts like pixels, aliasing, and screen door. The fill rate on LCoS is very good, so screen door isn't so much a problem, but even on my 8-foot wide screen at ~12-foot view distance, I could still see pixels occasionally on bright, fine, high-contrast details like small text in end credits, specular highlights like on chrome, etc. To me, LCoS is all about making the picture more "analog"-like.
| Spanky Ham wrote: | | Personally I would prefer that increased color gamut and bit depth come before resolution. Having said that, the JVC 4k demo with native 4k material at Cedia was stunning. Probably the best image I have seen. Unfortunately, the upconverted BRs didn't really do much for me. |
I want all of the above. The larger gamut makes a picture better, the larger bit depth makes a better picture, and the spatial resolution absolutely makes a better picture. I don't think any one thing is less important than another, as they all make move the image quality football a little further down the field. I want it all. Full stop.
SC
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:25 am Post subject: |
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The Kane comment was from one of his interviews with Scott Wilkinson at htgeeks. I may relisten to the interview tomorrow.
I agree with e-shift. As Craig put it, it makes the image more smooth like CRT. At the time, it was the only pj we had to test with. I can imagine that Cedia will have a pretty decent amount of 4k pjs this year. Hopefully an informal test can be done with both upscaled and 4k content. At the moment, I am really more concerned with upscaled.
I would like it all as well, but if I had to choose I would take gamut and bit before resolution right now.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:56 am Post subject: |
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I found this picture very clear explaining things.
It is from Sony and they are discussing an lcos beamer and still they mention less screendoor as important feature???
I measured my distance to my screen and I am just outside the 3 times height distance or close to it So will it be visible? It should not be very visible.
https://dealersource.sel.sony.com/dsweb/p/builtin/sony_4k_home_theater.html
At the end of the video the president of Sony says when you have 4k and 2k next to each other you realise that you have been watching through a screendoor! He says that literally.
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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | digitalayon wrote: | | Still tons of theaters are only 1080p and not 4k. 4K is really only going to be flat panel for the most part for the next 3-4 years......so enjoy your PJ. |
VERY little new content is being produced in 4K. While there is content being acquired in 4k, it's not being produced or finished in 4k. So, for the next few years, there won't be much for CRT'ers to be envious of. Now, a couple of years from now? All bets are off.
SC |
you better believe it man.....and my company is working on a polarizer for pure black levels in a LCOS rating for 20,000 hours on the bulb.
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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Show me the 4k media and I will believe it. 90% of all theaters have finally just caught up from 720P to 1080P. 10K is the one hollywood is really wanting in theaters. But as long as the theaters resist, you won't be seeing it anytime soon. Now I have been told hollywood will simply say if you want this movine in your movie house, you need to upgrade. They are going the way of Microsoft and Adobe.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:44 am Post subject: |
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He I have found some new information in this area. Hope I see it right. I think 4k upscaling will do something for digital because these pixels are on or off. If you upscale and have pixels in between you will get softer transistions but they will be closer to reality because the on and off signal is not what comes out of the camera. The camera wil give a smoother signal as it samples with 1080p the reality. When the digital signal it self is displayed on a monitor htis will in fact be an artificial sharpened image because every transition will have the same edge even when in reality most transitions where smoother except maybe that black/white shirt that is accidentally reproduced right.
So I think digital will in general produce an artificial sharp picture that is not real. Interpolating it with extra pixels will take some of this edge off and make it more natural.
With CRT this is not needed at all and upscaling will not do much good unless you can see the scanlines in your seat.
With original 4k material the question is really if you can see the extra detail. My guess is that going from 1080p to 2500p or something might be more than enough for our eyes. The extra bandwidth needed on CRT would be around 150MHz you need a modified Marquee for that but who knows perhaps other modifications will come in time.
Wanted to share as this is on my mind to with all the money I invested but I am happy I did 
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:59 am Post subject: |
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You will never be even close to resolve a 4K 60-72hz signal on a CRT, and i doubt there is any DAC that will be able to do the bandwidth needet.
There might be a benefit in 4K for crt if we can do a downscaling where we trow out every 2nd line, but keep the color resolution, im my head makes for a full 4:4:4 color resolution on a 1080P image.
The question just is how much the scaler/ processor messes up the signal on other parameters.
Ill guess pushing 4K on a modified Marquee will be just as meaningless as displaying 1080P 72 hz on a Barco 909.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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I was not very clear. What I mean is to record a very sharp edge in reality the camera needs to have infinite sample rate. If we get 4k original material we will see much sharper edges. It would be nice to resolve this but what we actually need is around 200MHz bandwidth with CRT flat but not higher. I think the Marquee wit modifications might do this?
I will have to see if there is a big difference between resolving full 4k or resolving 2k. We will never have the bandwidth to resolve full 4k. So we wait and see what it looks like 
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: | I was not very clear. What I mean is to record a very sharp edge in reality the camera needs to have infinite sample rate. If we get 4k original material we will see much sharper edges. It would be nice to resolve this but what we actually need is around 200MHz bandwidth with CRT flat but not higher. I think the Marquee wit modifications might do this?
I will have to see if there is a big difference between resolving full 4k or resolving 2k. We will never have the bandwidth to resolve full 4k. So we wait and see what it looks like |
I have no idea what measured bandwidth is needet, i know i have a 200Mhz pixel clock on a 1080P 72hz image.
I dont have a scope that can measure that high, im also mostly interested that the end result look right.
Mike did post a picture running a 300Mhz pixel clock true a moddet Marquee, looked perfect.
As there is always some peaking somewhere in the video chain, you cant just evaluate the performance looking a 1:1 on off pattern, you will need to see how it behaves from black to white.
How do the 1:1 come out of black on your 909, you can just display the pattern, turn contrast down to 0 and slowly turn it up while you look into the lenses. Notice that the 3 different colors might behave differently, as they are not driven the same.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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I guess the question is whether it is really the recording of very sharp edges that are almost never found in the real world or if it is the better reproduction on digital that make 4k look better. An owner of a sony 4k said that upscaled material looked almost as good as original material. That makes me think it is the digital reproduction on 1k that is the problem.
(crt has survived 3d )
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: | I guess the question is whether it is really the recording of very sharp edges that are almost never found in the real world or if it is the better reproduction on digital that make 4k look better. An owner of a sony 4k said that upscaled material looked almost as good as original material. That makes me think it is the digital reproduction on 1k that is the problem.
(crt has survived 3d ) |
Ummm CRT is dead.. lool
There is only a few nutcases left playing with it.
Its mostly a hobby for those who like soft washed out images.
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