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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | mr_ro_co wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | | ...when it comes to lighting and nearby or direct strikes, that there is no surge protector in the world that will protect anything. |
 Short of unplugging equipment from the wall, yes.
There are ways to truly protect our gear, but just not something a consumer would likely commit to. Motor-Flywheel-Generator electricity sources with stand-alone (discrete grounding plane) distribution comes to mind. Even then, lightning may be able to jump across even an insulating barrier between the flywheel couplings if it really, really wanted to, but if there was no earth ground path downstream of the generator, probably unlikely.
Steve |
The fact there may be no earth reference point means nothing, the lightning strike will be at a different potential to the supplied power, and that is what matters. The only reason lightning strikes the earth is because there is a significant difference in potential, and the same will apply to mains. Millions of volts will always be a different potential to 132kV or less
If the item youre refering to in the first part has a lightning strike near it, the expanding and contracting magnetic field from the lightning with still induce a voltage as it cuts the conductors of the power supply lines. This is almost always how lightning strikes affect supplied power.
Direct lightning strikes will almost always turn the supply cables into dust. The cables have no chance of carrying the current that will flow at the extreme voltage, and will burn up instantly, long before the protective devices can safely disconnect the load. |
I think lighting is far more complicated than you or I have any inkling. Lighting does some very strange things. Critical facilities go to great lengths to install elaborate lightning electrodes and associated grounding cabling, so I suspect the earth reference does means something. That something is a very available low impedance path. I also suspect that lighting doesn't seek a difference in potential per se. The main driver is low impedance path availability combined with whatever is closest. The types of electrostatic fields that are generated in the presence of lightning (millions to billions of volts!) are tremendous. The precurser to the actual lighting discharge is that crazy stepped leader phenomena, with all these different feelers that extend from objects on the earth and reach up towards it. How it "chooses" which feeler is not a simple function of it coming from something of "lower potential," such as household mains. Far more a function of impedance I would suspect. Hence the design of lighting protection systems. The more I think about it, I really don't think a billion volts give a sh*t between 0 volts (earth ground) or what we consider low, medium and high voltage for doing work, ranging from a few hundred volts to over 100k.
You are right, though, that if subjected to the EM/ES field of a nearby lightning strike, there's not much you can do about it inducing voltage and flowing current in wiring and associated electronics.
Steve
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Basically you just said exactly what i did regarding ground reference, i dont believe it has a huge amount to do with it in the voltage range we're talking here.
Air is an incredibly good insulator, so the fact electricity in the form of lightning will travel tens of thousands of meters through it indicates the voltage potential is rather incredible, certainly millions of volts.
In this case, impeadance will play little or no part, itll just be straight up resistance.
The thing about lightning rods is they are not used as a normal current carrying conductor, and hence they have no load on them. The lightning striking earth is not a dead short between supply and return. They differ from conductors used to supply loads, in that those conductors with carry ( or attempt to carry ) a current that is directly proportional to the magnitude of voltage and inversely proportional to impeadance ( which decreases when load is applied ) so if the voltage was to rise by 1,000,000 volts, the load stays about the same, I=V/Z, the current that flows must increase with the voltage.
If the load stays the same, and voltage increased from 11,000volts to around 1,000,000volts instantly, there is no way the fuses and circuit breakers feeding the loads can react it time to protect the cable, and itll fry instantly.
There are two things you always getting when you put electricity through a conductor, and they are heat and magnetism. Even when that conductor is timber or air, youll get both those things. The expanding magnetic field will induce a voltage into every conductor it cuts through, and will do the opposite as it contracts. The magnetic field from such incredible voltage would be some what phenominal at close range.
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | Basically you just said exactly what i did regarding ground reference, i dont believe it has a huge amount to do with it in the voltage range we're talking here.
Air is an incredibly good insulator, so the fact electricity in the form of lightning will travel tens of thousands of meters through it indicates the voltage potential is rather incredible, certainly millions of volts.
In this case, impeadance will play little or no part, itll just be straight up resistance.
The thing about lightning rods is they are not used as a normal current carrying conductor, and hence they have no load on them. The lightning striking earth is not a dead short between supply and return. They differ from conductors used to supply loads, in that those conductors with carry ( or attempt to carry ) a current that is directly proportional to the magnitude of voltage and inversely proportional to impeadance ( which decreases when load is applied ) so if the voltage was to rise by 1,000,000 volts, the load stays about the same, I=V/Z, the current that flows must increase with the voltage.
If the load stays the same, and voltage increased from 11,000volts to around 1,000,000volts instantly, there is no way the fuses and circuit breakers feeding the loads can react it time to protect the cable, and itll fry instantly.
There are two things you always getting when you put electricity through a conductor, and they are heat and magnetism. Even when that conductor is timber or air, youll get both those things. The expanding magnetic field will induce a voltage into every conductor it cuts through, and will do the opposite as it contracts. The magnetic field from such incredible voltage would be some what phenominal at close range. |
When you "put electricity" through a conductor (you mean apply EMF), you get an electromagnetic field (not "magnetism") and heat is generated from any work product of the resulting moving charge. Also, a contracting magnetic field has the same ability to induce voltage in a conductor as an expanding one. Induced voltage goes to zero when the magnetic field stops moving relative to the conductor.
I understand the difference between impedance and resistance, ampacity and induced voltage from EM fields. I also understand that a lighting protection system does not normally carry current. I also understand the basic design criteria of the typical lighting protection system. Since it has nothing to do with presenting lighting with a "lower potential" and everything to do with presenting better proximity to a very low impedance path to ground, this contradicts your original explanation that lighting is all about it seeking a lower potential.
I think in your explaining lighting behavior based on potential differences (EMF - voltage) you are overlooking what's really going on here. It's actually about charge equalization, not high potential seeking a low potential. The charge is going from a massive body of electrons and their attendant massive ES field to a discharge point somewhere. EMF exists, but as a function of the movement of charge. The huge voltage, which will define current flow, is established once the discharge occurs. Those stepped leaders and feelers seeking each other - that's electrostatic force charge triggered plasma stuff. Not "high potential seeking low potential" (whatever that is). EMF and ESF go hand in hand, but its the tremendous ES charge that's running the show with lightning and what best explains what path it seeks.
Lightning is very strange stuff and forgive me, but miss-worded electronics 101 doesn't explain it.
Best regards,
Steve
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Out of topic maybe.. but to me it's interesting. Setting magnets on green tube and getting, from what I assume, electrocuted from the HDM? That thing carries 1000V doesn't? First time I felt it through both arms but the other night it was a mere tingling of the lower right arm. I combed my hair both times and went back at it. Should I be concerned?
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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Try disconnecting the H yoke connectors off a Marquee immediately after powering down the set, and especially while the set's HV is powering down. The jolt you'll get out of the white connectors is.. unsettling. 
I keep forgetting.. and then keep on getting reminded NOT to do that!
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| mr_ro_co wrote: | | CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | Basically you just said exactly what i did regarding ground reference, i dont believe it has a huge amount to do with it in the voltage range we're talking here.
Air is an incredibly good insulator, so the fact electricity in the form of lightning will travel tens of thousands of meters through it indicates the voltage potential is rather incredible, certainly millions of volts.
In this case, impeadance will play little or no part, itll just be straight up resistance.
The thing about lightning rods is they are not used as a normal current carrying conductor, and hence they have no load on them. The lightning striking earth is not a dead short between supply and return. They differ from conductors used to supply loads, in that those conductors with carry ( or attempt to carry ) a current that is directly proportional to the magnitude of voltage and inversely proportional to impeadance ( which decreases when load is applied ) so if the voltage was to rise by 1,000,000 volts, the load stays about the same, I=V/Z, the current that flows must increase with the voltage.
If the load stays the same, and voltage increased from 11,000volts to around 1,000,000volts instantly, there is no way the fuses and circuit breakers feeding the loads can react it time to protect the cable, and itll fry instantly.
There are two things you always getting when you put electricity through a conductor, and they are heat and magnetism. Even when that conductor is timber or air, youll get both those things. The expanding magnetic field will induce a voltage into every conductor it cuts through, and will do the opposite as it contracts. The magnetic field from such incredible voltage would be some what phenominal at close range. |
When you "put electricity" through a conductor (you mean apply EMF), you get an electromagnetic field (not "magnetism") and heat is generated from any work product of the resulting moving charge. Also, a contracting magnetic field has the same ability to induce voltage in a conductor as an expanding one. Induced voltage goes to zero when the magnetic field stops moving relative to the conductor.
I understand the difference between impedance and resistance, ampacity and induced voltage from EM fields. I also understand that a lighting protection system does not normally carry current. I also understand the basic design criteria of the typical lighting protection system. Since it has nothing to do with presenting lighting with a "lower potential" and everything to do with presenting better proximity to a very low impedance path to ground, this contradicts your original explanation that lighting is all about it seeking a lower potential.
I think in your explaining lighting behavior based on potential differences (EMF - voltage) you are overlooking what's really going on here. It's actually about charge equalization, not high potential seeking a low potential. The charge is going from a massive body of electrons and their attendant massive ES field to a discharge point somewhere. EMF exists, but as a function of the movement of charge. The huge voltage, which will define current flow, is established once the discharge occurs. Those stepped leaders and feelers seeking each other - that's electrostatic force charge triggered plasma stuff. Not "high potential seeking low potential" (whatever that is). EMF and ESF go hand in hand, but its the tremendous ES charge that's running the show with lightning and what best explains what path it seeks.
Lightning is very strange stuff and forgive me, but miss-worded electronics 101 doesn't explain it.
Best regards,
Steve |
I didnt state at any point it was a higher potential seeking a lower potential. I said it is attracted to "a difference of potential", which is pretty much what youre saying. There is no denying the fact it is a significantly higher potential when compared to earth as a reference.
I said the expanding "and contracting" magnetic field...
A magnetic field and magnetism are the same thing in Australia.
To be quite honest with you i couldnt care less what terms you want to see used, i dont have the interest or the time to argue with you, and certainly not when youre repeating most of what i said using text book terms that no one in the trade has any interest of using.
I know lightning is strange stuff, and i have no reason to forgive you, im just far too busy to continue.
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | mr_ro_co wrote: | | CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | Basically you just said exactly what i did regarding ground reference, i dont believe it has a huge amount to do with it in the voltage range we're talking here.
Air is an incredibly good insulator, so the fact electricity in the form of lightning will travel tens of thousands of meters through it indicates the voltage potential is rather incredible, certainly millions of volts.
In this case, impeadance will play little or no part, itll just be straight up resistance.
The thing about lightning rods is they are not used as a normal current carrying conductor, and hence they have no load on them. The lightning striking earth is not a dead short between supply and return. They differ from conductors used to supply loads, in that those conductors with carry ( or attempt to carry ) a current that is directly proportional to the magnitude of voltage and inversely proportional to impeadance ( which decreases when load is applied ) so if the voltage was to rise by 1,000,000 volts, the load stays about the same, I=V/Z, the current that flows must increase with the voltage.
If the load stays the same, and voltage increased from 11,000volts to around 1,000,000volts instantly, there is no way the fuses and circuit breakers feeding the loads can react it time to protect the cable, and itll fry instantly.
There are two things you always getting when you put electricity through a conductor, and they are heat and magnetism. Even when that conductor is timber or air, youll get both those things. The expanding magnetic field will induce a voltage into every conductor it cuts through, and will do the opposite as it contracts. The magnetic field from such incredible voltage would be some what phenominal at close range. |
When you "put electricity" through a conductor (you mean apply EMF), you get an electromagnetic field (not "magnetism") and heat is generated from any work product of the resulting moving charge. Also, a contracting magnetic field has the same ability to induce voltage in a conductor as an expanding one. Induced voltage goes to zero when the magnetic field stops moving relative to the conductor.
I understand the difference between impedance and resistance, ampacity and induced voltage from EM fields. I also understand that a lighting protection system does not normally carry current. I also understand the basic design criteria of the typical lighting protection system. Since it has nothing to do with presenting lighting with a "lower potential" and everything to do with presenting better proximity to a very low impedance path to ground, this contradicts your original explanation that lighting is all about it seeking a lower potential.
I think in your explaining lighting behavior based on potential differences (EMF - voltage) you are overlooking what's really going on here. It's actually about charge equalization, not high potential seeking a low potential. The charge is going from a massive body of electrons and their attendant massive ES field to a discharge point somewhere. EMF exists, but as a function of the movement of charge. The huge voltage, which will define current flow, is established once the discharge occurs. Those stepped leaders and feelers seeking each other - that's electrostatic force charge triggered plasma stuff. Not "high potential seeking low potential" (whatever that is). EMF and ESF go hand in hand, but its the tremendous ES charge that's running the show with lightning and what best explains what path it seeks.
Lightning is very strange stuff and forgive me, but miss-worded electronics 101 doesn't explain it.
Best regards,
Steve |
I didnt state at any point it was a higher potential seeking a lower potential. I said it is attracted to "a difference of potential", which is pretty much what youre saying. There is no denying the fact it is a significantly higher potential when compared to earth as a reference.
I said the expanding "and contracting" magnetic field...
A magnetic field and magnetism are the same thing in Australia.
To be quite honest with you i couldnt care less what terms you want to see used, i dont have the interest or the time to argue with you, and certainly not when youre repeating most of what i said using text book terms that no one in the trade has any interest of using.
I know lightning is strange stuff, and i have no reason to forgive you, im just far too busy to continue. |
It's an expression for being blunt. I'm not actually asking for your forgiveness.
So you speak for all of Australia and all "in the trade." Wow that's impressive. Problem is that magnetism and a magnetic field are not the same thing, your ridiculous claim that they are "in Australia" not withstanding, and I assure you there are plenty of people "in the trade" that understand these concepts better than you do and can actually articulate them using correct terms. That you dismiss correct terms as "text book" and then claim that no one in your trade has any interest in using them is completely presumptuous and arrogant on your part.
You keep repeating that I'm merely saying what you have said. I'm most certainly am not. You are just putting words in my mouth because you want to equate your misunderstanding and misrepresentation with what I've said. You said what you said, own it and stop trying to weasel out of it.
I most certainly am not saying that lightning is attracted to a "difference in potential" or a "lower potential." I never said any such thing. That's what YOU are saying and I have tried to explain why that's not correct. A higher potential isn't "attracted" to a lower potential. Potential difference defines things like voltage drop and current direction and magnitude. Charges are attracted or repelled by each other, as I have already tried to explain to you.
You said, "The expanding magnetic field will induce a voltage into every conductor it cuts through, and will do the opposite as it contracts." Wrong.
You said "There are two things you always getting when you put electricity through a conductor, and they are heat and magnetism." Wrong, in more ways than one.
You should care what terms are used, otherwise you don't care about having a real discussion aimed at improving anyone's knowledge or understanding. You entered this discussion with erroneous information and claims and you are making mistakes with basic electronics concepts, and then you react like a petulant child when someone patiently and tactfully tries to correct you. You then make utterly ridiculous anti-intellectual claims as your parting shots as you excuse yourself from the discussion just because your contribution was challenged.
Don't take it so personally, dude. Be cool with your limitations and don't make patently absurd claims when those limitations are revealed.
Steve
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:54 am Post subject: |
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I dont take anything personally on the internet. To think id be that hung up would be a little rediculous.
The reason i dont believe it is at all important is because i just have no interest in arguing over something so trivial when ive got far too many other things to do. It will be of no benefit to anyone at all, so why bother?
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | I dont take anything personally on the internet. To think id be that hung up would be a little rediculous.
The reason i dont believe it is at all important is because i just have no interest in arguing over something so trivial when ive got far too many other things to do. It will be of no benefit to anyone at all, so why bother? |
Personal growth? Knowledge for knowledge's sake? For when you build your own Tesla coil? You're a technical guy, I assume you are equivalent to a journeyman electrician in the U.S. with your references to the trades. I've seen posts of yours about CRT projectors, cars (like your worked over C4 vette and your interest in Mercedes), large emergency diesel fueled generators that obviously greatly appeal to you, solar electricity systems, etc. So you clearly have an interest in advancing your technical knowledge...
Steve
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:41 am Post subject: |
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I may do, but not with the work load i have on at the moment.
I am a qualified electrician in Australia yes.
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | Try disconnecting the H yoke connectors off a Marquee immediately after powering down the set, and especially while the set's HV is powering down. The jolt you'll get out of the white connectors is.. unsettling.
I keep forgetting.. and then keep on getting reminded NOT to do that! |
Noted
I know from experience that surge protectors are not made the same(lost a computer power supply in the process)
It was luck the the power supplies surge protector circuits saved the motherboard and drives
As far as lightening goes it can do some wild stuff
I was sitting on my back porch one day and a storm was not far away
All of a sudden lightening struck not far from my house later that night my grandma called and said her water heater and stove both got damaged during the storm (my uncle had a tv get damaged during the same storm)
Ever since I always unplug everything in the house when it storms
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HD-DAVE
Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 225
Location: Delta, BC
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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Rainy day here on the wet coast so I thought I'd dive into my f***'d up XG and see if i could see anything amiss. Pulled all the boards out of the card cage, inspected all the HV and deflection boards - no sign of damage...the only thing i did see is when I pulled apart the power supply module and took it to pieces ( it was high time I did that anyway it was getting dusty). There were three areas on the two PS boards that look burned or at least like they've overheated. One was on the main input/filtering board around Q05 (part no IRF1830G) - all the resistor values around Q05 are ok and its not blown open but it sure looks bad. On the daughter PS board there are a couple of other toasted looking areas but not nearly as bad.
One thing I did not mention is that the screen shots I posted earlier do not represent a "continuous" image...there is only an image up on the screen for a fraction of a second on the RGB input...via the moome card it stays up full time. So its "flapping" on RGB.
SOme pics of the toasted looking PS input/rectification/filtering board area around Q05:
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HD-DAVE
Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 225
Location: Delta, BC
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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Given the set powers up i think the main issue at this spot is really poor heat sinking of Q05 (it has a heatsink which i removed for the pic - its a really crappy clip on one), obviously this area has been running quite hot for a very long time to look like that. Curt, the boards I bought from you last year (or so) are:
PWC-4271 D-CONV (digital convergence)
PWC-4193 WAVE PWB
PWC-4271 OSC-PWB
Plus I think an
F-DRIVE
V-DRIVE
C-DRIVE
I do not have a System Board.... maybe you could PM me with the cost of that one plus someone mentioned my symptoms could be one of the deflection boards ( looks like vertical possibly given the glitches are in portions of the vertical scanning...
...Dave
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HD-DAVE
Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 225
Location: Delta, BC
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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I also checked the backup lithium battery on the system board it measured 5.1 volts .... if the set lost power and this battery couldn't hold that voltage if i lost all the settings would the image look like it does ?... i could understand convergence / centering etc all going out the window ...but maybe thats not it given the messed up scanning and lack of stable text overlay from the system board.
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HD-DAVE
Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 225
Location: Delta, BC
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:53 am Post subject: |
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Things are looking somewhat better - although it appears I have an intermittant...I think it likely IS the system board because when the set craps out i lose control not only with the remote , but also can't even power it off using the green enable button on the rgb /input area on the rear edge of the set. Does this sound "system board" Curt ?
I tried swapping in all the logic boards I had from Curt made no difference.
It appears to stabilize with the set warming up, so maybe I've got some bad caps somewhere....
Some screenshots attached - things are still wonky even tho the image is clean - the position of the image is about 1' too low and I've lost my perfect convergence on the edges. It only looks somewhat clean because I adjusted the static.
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HD-DAVE
Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 225
Location: Delta, BC
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:58 am Post subject: |
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Screenshots. Oh and I added a nice big heatsink to Q05 in the PS input board before I reassembled the set....
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HD-DAVE
Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 225
Location: Delta, BC
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:07 am Post subject: |
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What a weird problem ....after watching a nice clean image (BC Lions game) over the Moome HDMI for the past 30 mins, look what happened when I switched to a laptop RGB connection...bottom 1/5th is smeared with weird wavy lines in the raster !
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:56 am Post subject: |
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Delete that source and make a new one. You might have to delete them all and redo them.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:16 am Post subject: |
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By the way, your last picture shows the symptoms of a bad D-convergence board.
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current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
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